Even Greener Pastures
Language Learning => Questions about the Use of Language => Topic started by: Truman Overby on October 23, 2018, 01:50:07 pm
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This discussion is already a little bit "old" and it had even strained from the original topic, but I just happened to find this notebook entry about it. The title caught my attention and I am happy it did.
It's about vernacular languages and I really like what this guy has to say about the subject.
https://www.italki.com/notebook/2917455/entry/948410
I had a little trouble understanding what he meant by “venacular languages”. Is is talking about “dead” languages like Latin or little used languages like Icelandic? I`m confused what a “venacular language” is. I also disagree with his comments about the reason people select certain languages to learn. The list he gave is only half-true. There is no such thing as an “easy” language to learn, for example. What makes a language easy to one, might make it extremely difficult to another. It`s multi-factorial. For English or German native speakers, Dutch is supposed to be an easy language to learn. But, that is not true for a native Japanese speaker. To call any language “easy” to learn is ridiculous. All foreign languages are hard to learn. They requires endless hours of exposure to the language, formal grammar instruction lasting often years, overall exposure to the language for years, and a LOT of motivation. A lot less than most academic subjects.
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This discussion is already a little bit "old" and it had even strained from the original topic, but I just happened to find this notebook entry about it. The title caught my attention and I am happy it did.
It's about vernacular languages and I really like what this guy has to say about the subject.
https://www.italki.com/notebook/2917455/entry/948410
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Yes, you're right that was it. The case in point I remarked on above is totally irrelevant. You caught me.
In reality Steve the lies were so obvious I really didn't feel like bothering to document more than a few. When you're batting 1000 by playing against third graders, it gets boring after a while.
I find our new discussion about future policy towards South America far more interesting because you have a point. How do we bring wealth and opportunity to the masses in countries where the very means of production (land, capital, education) are inordinately expensive or completely unavailable to them.
You didnt read my article because it was fantastic.
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Yes, you're right that was it. The case in point I remarked on above is totally irrelevant. You caught me.
In reality Steve the lies were so obvious I really didn't feel like bothering to document more than a few. When you're batting 1000 by playing against third graders, it gets boring after a while.
I find our new discussion about future policy towards South America far more interesting because you have a point. How do we bring wealth and opportunity to the masses in countries where the very means of production (land, capital, education) are inordinately expensive or completely unavailable to them.
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You stopped reading it because it told the truth and you didnt want to hear it.
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Well first of all the books are full of lies - case in point Castro's nationalization of US industry on the island, (which is the basis for the U.S. embargo) is portrayed as a natural response to Eisenhower lowering the sugar quota. What is ignored is the lowering of the sugar quota was a response to Castro selling sugar to the Communist block at more favorable rates and his forcing US petroleum interests in Cuba to refine Soviet oil or face economic repercussions.
The list of lies goes on and on, I stopped reading after a while.
You do bring up a good point tho Steve, and I will open a new thread on it in worldwide politics later today.
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Plus, I got upgraded here with a special award status (not sure what that means but it sounds good).
Maybe it was because of my new quote below, „Vorwärts immer, rückwärts nimmer.“ That’s from Erich Honecker, „always forward, never backward“, you know the former DDR leader guy. Well, he kind of went down the drain himself, the poor guy and died in Chile. But, at least he had that „move forward“ spirit.
But, anyway, never mind Honecker. This is my new theme of optimism! I move forward to the paradise of Germany and leave the ruin of the US behind!!“
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You realize of course that a large portion of their teaching materials are basically Communist Comic books?
Or do you prefer the title Graphic Novel?
Neal,
They are not comic books, but serious stuff! You should read this material sometime. Did you read all about the Cuban history and what Fidel did for the country and what that Batista guy was up to? It was shocking. The Cubans didn`t have shoes or healthcare or anything before Fidel came along, according to the article. Their lives were horrible before 1959.
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You realize of course that a large portion of their teaching materials are basically Communist Comic books?
Or do you prefer the title Graphic Novel?
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Well, there is a taqueria next to their office, so be nice. And yes, the area is a little seedy, but then they can`t exactly afford the Republican luxury office suites like all the rich folks. These are working class people working for the working class, don’t forget.
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The Mission district, swell. Perhaps I could pick up a tasty taco when I visit.
I will be sure to leave a donation. I wouldn't want any of the third graders to miss the big field trip to Sea World.
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Neal, third grade level reading material??
No, this link it to the PSL´s educational library where they store their best pieces:
http://liberationschool.org/cubas-state-in-revolution/
Sort of makes Cuba sound like a socialist paradies.
It`s called the „Liberation School.“
And this is a good interview with Angela Davis from 1972:
http://liberationschool.org/angela-davis-on-why-shes-a-communist/
PSL
2969 Mission St
San Francisco, CA 94110
United States
Google map and directions
You should visit their office next time you are in San Francisco. Their literature is free or you could leave a donation. :)
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Send me the links, I could use some third grade level reading material, right after I finish "See Dick Run".
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Wackadoos at the PSL? They are supporting the hotel strike in San Francisco with the „one job should be enough“ campaign and they´ve got some good articles on Cuba and Venezuela and how the US embargo has caused hardship on Cuba and how Venezuela is holding up in spite of US aggression. The entire world at the UN is against the Cuba embargo except the US and Israel (typical).
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Steve, what would rioting liberals want with my farm? The only thing that has value in case of a societal breakdown. And no it isnt gold, its food.
I also don't fear the US army, I figure in most cases they would be on my side. I do think my weapons make the expropriation wackadoos like your pals at PSL or those people murdering white farmers in South Africa ( just one worlwide example) think twice. And I refuse to be a pathetic sheep, entrusting the safety of my life and property to the government, when all around and throughout history there is example after example of how tragically foolish that can be.
And yes I do believe some of the overreach of the previous administration was kept in check by the fact that the people are armed.
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Jerry,
I know what you`re hung up about. It`s the 14th Amendment saying “and subject to the jurisdiction thereof”. That’s just a lot of verbiage that doesn’t mean anything. Everyone who is in the US for any reason, legal or illegal, citizen or non-citizen, is subject to the jurisdiction of the US. That’s like, “yeah, no kidding. Everyone here is.” Even people OUTSIDE the US can be subject to the jurisdiction of the US. All they need to do is anything that in any sight way impacts the US to be subject to US jurisdiction, as far as the US is concerned. I`m not saying it`s right, but that`s just US law. Why do you think Noriega is in jail in the US (I think he’s still alive isn’t he?) He was in Panama and the US just went in and kidnapped him and dragged him back to the US. All those “no jurisdiction” defenses went nowhere in court. Pablo Escobar was subject to the jurisdiction of the US as far as US law was concerned, yet he lived in Columbia and was a Columbian citizen. And he knew the US would have loved to have grabbed him up and brought him back to the US to send him away. Anyone who even sets foot in the US is subject to US jurisdiction. That’s just the basic law of jurisdiction that`s been around a couple of hundred years. In the 14th A it`s just worthless filler. I don`t know why they put that in there. They were just being dummies I guess.
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Neal,
I think there’s something about people from Long Island, New York that make them gun lovers. I don’t know what it is exactly. Maybe something in the water.
I had a friend once from Islip, or between Brentwood and Islip I think he said, who sounded just you with that AA-12 thing. If you showed him that AA-12 he’d have thought it was the most amazing thing in the world, his eyes would have glazed over, and he`d have wanted to know all about it. And the gun collection this guy had? Oh my god. This guy was off the scale cookoo about guns. I never figured it out. It`s got something to do with people from your area, or at least the Brentwood/Islip area. They love their guns and ammo.
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Jerry,
Did you read the 14th Amendment in the New York Times article? I don`t how you can be much clearer than that. Where’s the ambiguity? This isn’t like Roe v. Wade where the US Supreme Court found certain liberty rights in the “penumbras” of the due process clause to come up with particular legal rights not spelled out clearly. I`ll admit that was a bit of a stretch (and that’s reaching back 30 years to Con. Law class, remembering all that).
I`d recommend doing the constitutional amendment route, like Neal says. Or let`s compromise. We repeal the 2nd Amendment entirely because it is such a pathetic old joke it`s not even funny, and worthless on top of that, in exchange for your 14th Amendment alteration to keep out the people you don’t want born to illegals and tourists. Or just make citizenship require one US citizen parent and make place of birth irrelevant like in Europe. I don’t really care one way or the other to be honest.
Neal,
What are you going to do with that AA-12? Hunt squirrels? Please. Why would anyone waste his money on something like that?
I think the rioting liberals aren’t going to be much threat to your farm anyway. So, fogetaboutit.
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Neal,
I don’t know how clearer the 14th Amendment can be when it says all persons born in the US are US citizens.
FALSE. That is not what it says.
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The AA-12 is just an incredibly robust and easy to use weapon, even for old guys like me with poor eyesight. And the dragon's breath rounds are just a hoot. Not much use against the US army but plenty for revolting liberals, rioting snowflake millenials, or para military wannabe police.
As for the 14th amendment the jurisdiction clause is not at all clear. The idea is that ultimately tourists and illegals are still under their citizen country jurisdiction and for most crimes are simply deported. But if it makes you happy I could go for a constitutional amendment. And Paul Ryan's quote is the reason why he and Romney were not elected in 2012. RINOs.
Birthright citizenship is dumb and needs to be ended. It has only really become something in the past few decades with the ease of major travel.
Anchor babies are a ridiculous, modern concept.
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Neal,
You and those guns aren’t going to protect you against the US war machine. Seriously? Neal, what are you going on about? You wouldn’t be safe if you were even allowed to own a tank.
I don’t know how clearer the 14th Amendment can be when it says all persons born in the US are US citizens. What’s ambiguous about that? Is there an exception for tourists and illegal aliens? Well, it sure doesn’t say or imply that.
Here´s a great example of where the conservatives want “judicial activism”, which they claim to hate (in other words interpretation), when it suits their agenda, but not when it doesn’t. You can`t have it both ways. Either the Supreme Court has a kind of law-making function through interpretation (Marbury v. Madison) or it doesn’t.
In 1958 the State of Arkansas took a segregation case to the US Supreme Court (about segregated schools) and argued that the US Supreme Court had no right interpret the Constitution, effectively asking it to reverse Marbury v. Madison, which goes back to the late 1700s I think, and the Court said, “No. You´re wrong. So, go away.” And, the State of Arkansas did go away. Now, we’ve got all the “strict constructionists” not wanting strict construction, but free and open interpretation so long as it follows their political agenda.
I don’t know about other countries offering citizenship by birth to tourists and illegal aliens, but if you read the article, Mexico and a few other countries do have citizenship-birth rules. It doesn’t mention tourists or illegal residents.
Yeah, I know of no European country that offers citizenship by place of birth. They all, generally speaking, require at least one parent be a citizen and place of birth in the world becomes irrelevant.
There was a really odd story on German TV not long ago, a documentary, about a strange situation where some guy had German citizenship and his parents moved when he was very young to the US, like when he was a month old or something. They somehow lived in the US for decades and he was raised here. Either the parents died or something, and he never got US citizenship, but just lived here somehow because his parents had residency permits. When the parents died or whatever happened to them, he had no legal status in the US and the US just deported him to Germany (he doesn’t know how lucky he was). But, the guy didn`t speak the language, he was older when deported, and didn`t have job skills of any sort that he could carry over to Germany, but he had German citizenship. I think he ended up on public assistance renting a room out from someone. A very odd story.
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I think the plan is to issue the executive order, and once it is challenged have the Supreme Court rule on it. The argument can be made that the Constitution is murky on the subject and the Court has not weighed in on it.
The U.S. and Canada are the only developed countries in the world that offer birthright citizenship to tourists and illegal aliens. And no, Germany doesn't do it either.
For home protection I prefer the AA-12 automatic shotgun
https://youtu.be/WOoUVeyaY_8
With Dragon's Breath rounds (go to 1:45)
https://youtu.be/t8fmhpy0z1U
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Well, that was on Yahoo news this morning, but it doesn’t matter. Trump thinks he can eliminate birthright-citizenship by executive order, or his law-making-by-fiat philosophy. I thought that`s the way dictators did things? The entire notion is pretty ridiculous and unprecedented.
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/30/us/politics/trump-birthright-citizenship.html
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where either trump or Ted Cruz said he (one or the other or both) had never heard of citizenship by birth and didn`t know what it was.
That's not true and you know it's not.
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No, Alharacas, I`m not comparing the US to dictatorships, like in Turkey, or other places. But, Trump does admire “strong leaders” as he calls them. And, it`s not just Erdogan but others all over the place too, like in the Philippines, etc.
I just saw on Yahoo news briefly, and I don’t know the news source (it could have been CNN or MSNBC) where either trump or Ted Cruz said he (one or the other or both) had never heard of citizenship by birth and didn`t know what it was. This is like junior high school social studies stuff for a 12 year old. It`s pretty shocking. So, if they don’t think its birth place that triggers citizenship, what standard are these guys expecting to use? Do they want everyone to fill out an Ahnentafel or something? (Genealogy chart)?
It´s really getting bizarre. We can only hope for a big win for the democrats in a week to save the country. Otherwise, it`s going down the drain.
That`s right Jerry, right down the tubes.
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Neal, the US is already setting itself up to be like a Turkey with Erdogan. It`going in that direction fast.
I`m glad you feel protected from the power of the US military with a pee-shooter in the garage because of the 2nd amendement. I´m sure that shotgun will stand up well against the US military arsenal. I can assure you it`s a pure delusion. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense with a one-party US governmental system with an wannabe dictator at the helm, who wants to rule by decree.
Steven, I do wish you would not compare your maybe less than ideal government to dictatorships like Erdogan's. If nothing else, it's disrespectful towards their victims.
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Neal, the US is already setting itself up to be like a Turkey with Erdogan. It`going in that direction fast.
I`m glad you feel protected from the power of the US military with a pee-shooter in the garage because of the 2nd amendement. I´m sure that shotgun will stand up well against the US military arsenal. I can assure you it`s a pure delusion. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense with a one-party US governmental system with an wannabe dictator at the helm, who wants to rule by decree.
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LOL!
Thanks for the joke!
Are the words the same in German too?
No, they aren't, it's an untranslatable joke. But then again, it wasn't exactly making the rounds in Germany.
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As to Germany telling Greece to f*ck off - you've heard the joke that started making the rounds during the (first) Greek debt crisis, haven't you?
A German is travelling to Greece. Upon arrival, a Greek official asks him: "Occupation?" Answer: "Not this time."
How many Greek Debt Crises are those guys on now? It's gotta be getting near 500 or so.
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LOL!
Thanks for the joke!
Are the words the same in German too?
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As to Germany telling Greece to f*ck off - you've heard the joke that started making the rounds during the (first) Greek debt crisis, haven't you?
A German is travelling to Greece. Upon arrival, a Greek official asks him: "Occupation?" Answer: "Not this time."
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Yeah, I get it, refugees. It is hard to just send someone back to a war zone. What is happening now with Turkey?
Have a look:
https://www.dw.com/en/eu-greenlights-3-billion-for-syrian-refugees-in-turkey/a-42970744
IMO, there are lots and lots of words like "supposed/supposedly" missing from that article.
Let's keep in mind that Erdogan is the guy who'd tried to blackmail the US by keeping Andrew Brunson in jail.
He's also this guy: https://www.dw.com/en/turkey-abducted-erdogan-opponents-in-kosovo/av-43780323
And this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016%E2%80%93present_purges_in_Turkey
Please note that many, very many of those dismissed or jailed because of supposedly being Gulenists had actively been fighting Gulen's influence in Turkey.
An anecdote: I know a woman who's just received an official letter from Turkey, threatening her with 7.5 to 15 years of jail because of her supposed "terrorism" (she'd been helping refugees in Turkey with the help of an association that may or may not have been financed by Gulenists). What she's now most afraid of is that Erdogan might blackmail her into going back to Turkey by taking her aged and ailing mother prisoner - as he's been known to do.
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Yeah, I get it, refugees. It is hard to just send someone back to a war zone. What is happening now with Turkey?
And the suggested headlines you wrote? It is time for Germany to respond "F off" to such comparisons. Esp if they come from Greece.
SHL, I am not going to take advice about disarming myself from someone who believes in the violent expropriation of private property as a source of wealth for the common good.
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There is also the small question of what Germany/the EU was supposed to have done instead, you know. Tell Greece to just throw the refugees back into the sea they'd come from ("Germany's second biggest mass murder!")? Pay the border countries to the east to build a wall ("Germany building new Wall!") in order to have the refugees starve at the borders (headline: see above)? Pay Greece and the other border countries to put up and maintain gigantic camps ("Germany building camps again!")? Of course, the German government could have done right from the start what it's doing now, i.e. pay gigantic sums of tax money to the very unsavoury guys who are ruling Turkey, in order to make the refugees disappear from the headlines. Only problem: that would not have gone over well with the German voters. Not at the time.
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Neal
You sure will never find anything like THAT in the US Constitution. Instead we have the right to own a gun, or better yet a musket like they had in 1780. Brilliant. Yeah, the right to own guns, as if anyone needs that load of garbage in a Constitution. What a laugh. The 2nd Amendment should have been repealed 100 years ago.
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Another point that is particularly aimed at Germany. Sometimes I look at Germany and I still see so much self-flagellation about the war. I suppose it was comforting to see during the Cold War, but for the sake of future generations that stuff needs to get further back in the rear view mirror.
But it remains to be asked, does the current state of welcoming immigration have as part of its core a guilty reaction to the racist policies of the Third Reich? Because I would not like that to be true.
Neal, how am I supposed to answer that? The Basic Law of the Federal Republic of Germany, i.e. the German Constitution was written with the catastrophe of the Third Reich fresh in everybody's mind. That's why there is Art. 16a (1) Persons persecuted on political grounds shall have the right of asylum. As watered down as it has mostly been in practice.
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Another point that is particularly aimed at Germany. Sometimes I look at Germany and I still see so much self-flagellation about the war. I suppose it was comforting to see during the Cold War, but for the sake of future generations that stuff needs to get further back in the rear view mirror.
But it remains to be asked, does the current state of welcoming immigration have as part of its core a guilty reaction to the racist policies of the Third Reich? Because I would not like that to be true.
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I somewhat agree with Neal that a lot of the discussion here is not so much about bloodlines as it is about language, and culture.
I know my own experience means little, but I`m sure that Alharacas is correct, that if I had gone to Berlin, or gotten out of the fairly narrow area of Northern Germany I was in in 1980 I probably would have seen more of the immigration at the time. My entire world at that time extended from Vechelde (this fairly small town a little West of Densdorf, where I lived, which itself was a lot smaller with one gas station, one church, oh, and one Puff -the local brothel, can`t forget that) to Braunschweig, and no further East than Helmstedt, where the border was. Then there was Wolfenbüttel a little to the South and Salzgitter, and that was it. That was pretty much my entire world at the time. And, at least in this fairly small area, I never saw any headscarves or signs of any immigrant communities. But, if you go there today they`re not hard to find. So, things have changed. But, I didn`t have a car back then and had to work, so there was no time for travel anyway.
I knew that there were Turkish people someplace and others, but there was no sense of a Muslim presence that I recall. I’m sure if I had seen a headscarf I would have remembered it because it would have struck me as so unusual. I only remember an Italian guy who ran a pizza place next to our store. That was about it, as far as a non-local presence, but that has nothing to do with an influx of Muslim people today.
I did read both of Alharacas´articles, the English and German ones, and they were quite interesting.
This is one of those hot button topics today. I don’t really have strong opinions about it one way or the other. So,
I´ll be content to see Neal and Alharacas discuss it on the sidelines and see how it plays out.
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Germany, because of its location, is certainly ethnically diverse. Various migrations and invasions passed over Germany for thousands of years. Part of the results of this is the late date of German unification. But I am not talking bloodlines, that is Nazism. I am talking language. And I think we are agreed in this: language=culture. Especially native language.
I am not against immigration at all, and very diverse peoples can join together. Immigration has historically been one of America's great strengths. And perhaps you are right, Germany is getting the cream of the crop of other countries. The ambitious, the intellectual.
There is a place for immigrants who want to assimilate, who come in portions that can be handled properly. The problems come when the numbers get too high, when there is no desire for assimilation, when the host country hands them the keys to the welfare state, when they feel entitled.
Perhaps Germany has found the "sweet spot". Looking from outside, we are wondering and concerned. Much of Europe has not had the same success.
And yes I would lump the not so devout Protestants and Catholics of Europe with other Christian groups. There will be disagreement, but there is shared culture. Islam is very different from other religions in this respect. It commands certain political perspectives (most notably about women), and demands that its followers institute Sharia as soon as practicable.
In 19th Century US there was a movement to not allow Roman Catholic immigration into the US because Catholics could not be good citizens as they owed allegiance to the Pope in Rome. That was rightfully overturned, and there is no religious test in US politics. But Islam is different. Is it possible to be a good Moslem without the political push to subjugate other beliefs?
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Alharacas I dont think Italy is reporting the same success as Germany.
Yes in the next decade these new workers will support social welfare for older Germans. But at what percentage will it become a problem. Look at France, many of the immigrants even speak the language but a permanent underclass is forming, assimilation is lacking because immigrants are numerous enough to form local enclaves, this is leading to instability.
I realize it is not popular to mention but Islam has a political component that is ever present and will become ever more a problem as their numbers grow.
Homogeneity is one of Europe's great strengths. Dont be so quick to give it up.
Italy - well, it wouldn't. For one thing, the Italian economy is nowhere near as robust as its German counterpart. For another, all of those boatloads of African refugees which don't land in Spain, land in Italy - with most of them willy-nilly staying in Italy.
France - I got the (perhaps unfounded) impression that there is a sort of feeling of entitlement among many immigrants from the former French colonies. A mindset that's largely absent among immigrants in Germany, as far as I know.
Homogeneity - Neal, you're interested in military history. Even the most cursory glance at any history book will tell you that most of Europe has been a melting pot for at least 2 millennia. I had a look and found this rather long and general article on genetics and migration (in English):
https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2017/05/theres-no-such-thing-pure-european-or-anyone-else
Unfortunately, I couldn't find anything in English relating to the studies mentioned in this article:
https://www.welt.de/wissenschaft/article1398825/Nur-wenige-Deutsche-sind-echte-Germanen.html
According to this, only 6% of Germans are of Germanic origin. 30% are Eastern European, 10% have Jewish ancestors, and what the rest of our respective genomes is made up of is anybody's guess: probably leftovers from the Roman, Hun, Ottoman, Swedish and Napoleonic armies (not to mention those of the two World Wars). Which in turn were a mishmash of soldiers/mercenaries from all over the place.
And if Steven had travelled a little in Germany in 1980, to Berlin, for instance, to Stuttgart, or to any of the big industrial centers along the Rhine, not only would he have seen plenty of women wearing headscarves, but he'd also have heard plenty of people speaking German in a multitude of foreign accents. :)
Apart from the now 3 million people of Turkish descent (half of which have a Geman passport by now), let me just mention the roughly 250.000 Persian immigrants (refugees from both before and after the Islamic revolution), the roughly 100.000 Vietnamese (boat people on the one hand, contract workers who stayed on on the other), the roughly 500.000 immigrants from various Arabic countries (here long before the Syran refugees) and the several million people from the territories of the former USSR. Here's just one example of what I'm talking about:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kazakhstan_Germans
Do read it, will you, in case you think "Oh, those were just Germans returning to the Fatherland".
As to the "political dimension of Islam" - you do realize, don't you, that saying that is like throwing not-particularly-devout Protestants into the same ideological/faith-related pot as devout Roman Catholics, Jehova's Witnesses and Mormons?
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Sorry I got ahead of you Neal in the postings. I somehow started to post something earlier in the day and didn´t finish it. So I got in ahead of you.
I can tell you homogeneity was definitely the order of the day back in 1980 in Europe. Very much so. I guess the same can`t exactly be said of the US, but there is regional homogeneity of sorts.
It will be interesting to see how all this plays out, but like you said Islam does have a political component to it. I forgot where I saw this, but there was a documentary I saw not long and I think it had to do with someplace in Germany (for some reason I can`t recall if this was the UK or Germany, but either one). This band of thugs decided that they were going to declare a few streets in some town in Germany or the UK under Sharia Law. So, they’d go around calling themselves something like “Sharia law patrols” hassling people drinking a beer in a bar, or telling women who weren’t even Muslims to put on headscarves. All this outrageous nonsense. Can you imagine the nerve of these people? Then the local police and to go into break up these gangs of bums. But they didn’t do anything to them. Then the same guys would put on yellow outfits and go out and do the same thing the next night. It was one of the craziest things you`d ever heard of.
No one would have dared try anything like that in 1980.
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Alharacas I dont think Italy is reporting the same success as Germany.
Yes in the next decade these new workers will support social welfare for older Germans. But at what percentage will it become a problem. Look at France, many of the immigrants even speak the language but a permanent underclass is forming, assimilation is lacking because immigrants are numerous enough to form local enclaves, this is leading to instability.
I realize it is not popular to mention but Islam has a political component that is ever present and will become ever more a problem as their numbers grow.
Homogeneity is one of Europe's great strengths. Dont be so quick to give it up.
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Alharacas was talking about the major ethnic changes in Germany over the last 50 years and I do know what she is talking about.
When I was working in Braunschweig in 1980, they didn`t have an EU, but instead what I believe was called the EEC, the European Economic Community. I think it was more a trade union than anything else. They still had borders between all countries you had to cross over when going from one country to the next, and of course the Iron Curtain was still up. So, the entire East was a very different place. There also weren’t very many immigrant groups in Germany back then. The best way to put it was that it was a very homogenous place. The only real immigrants who were permanently there were descendants of or part of the Gastarbeiter (guest worker) communities. Alharacas can explain all that history better than I, but those were mostly men originally, who usually had come from Turkey, Italy or the former Yugoslavia to work, maybe Greece, I imagine on a temporary basis, to fill in the need in the 50s and 60s for manpower that was, to a large extent, lost during the war. The idea was these people would stay awhile and then go back home when they weren’t needed anymore. But, they didn`t. And, they wound up bringing their families and they became the real first wave of post-war immigrants to Germany. Now, with all the more recent immigration, the entire population mix is noticeable different, especially in the cities. But, I do remember it being very different then. In those days I never saw a woman wearing a headscarf, or anything like that, not even once. But, now, you see that all the time.
I remember a rather amusing story I`ll never forget. When I was working at the supermarket in Braunschweig, I rented a room from a young couple out in this little town, Denstorf. I was 22, and they were like around 26 or 27. The wife, Gertrude, worked at the same store I did (which is how I got the room to rent) and the husband, Wolfgang, worked at a men’s clothing store in town. Gertrude was a nice young lady, blonde, who wore her hair up in this bun, Wolfgang had a darker skin tone than the rest of us. One day, I was sitting on the couch having a beer with him after work, watching TV, clicking through the two kind of boring DDR channels , 1 and 2, and then going to the much better West German channels. Wolfgang told me that before he married “Trudi” as he called her (only he was allowed to call her that) his in-laws wanted to see his passport to prove to them he was a German, because as he explained it, I could see he was a darker sort of guy. His in-laws thought he might have been a Yugoslav or something. I`ll never forget being a bit amused by that story. I never paid any attention to stuff like
that coming from the US because we were used to a lot more diversity or something I suppose. We had darker skinned Mexican people in town, and others. So, we never gave it much thought.
I suppose now with the waves of refugees and Middle Eastern people living now in Germany and all over Europe, the place has become much more ethnically diverse than ever before. It seems people are accepting it okay. The older generation is now retired or now retiring, and they were folks like me back then, in their 20s. But, there could be a future push back. They say it`s on the rise, especially in the Eastern areas of the former DDR, where they never had any real immigration until die Wende, or Wiedervereinigung, the reunification.
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Just in case you're interested:
- The welfare state gets abused a lot less than you might think. Least of all by immigrants who tend to be ambitious and to want a really good life, not one hanging around the fringes of society. (Interestingly, those who are most vociferous about immigrants/refugees' supposed abuse of the welfare system are also those most likely to abuse it themselves.)
- In a few years (round about 2025, if I remember correctly) there simply aren't going to be enough people to keep the welfare system working, or to pay people their old age pensions. A measly million or two of refugees/immigrants (among more than 80 million Germans) is barely going to make a dent in this.
- Official statistics claim that between a 5th and a quarter of all Germans come from immigrant families. Now, this is a bit ridiculous as it takes into account all of the people who moved to the territories of the 2 German states at the end of WWII. Still, over the course of the last 50 years, German society has more or less successfully managed to absorb several million immigrants, a sizeable portion of which were muslim, long before the arrival of the Syrian refugees.
- There probably are a lot of unskilled workers among the Syrian refugees. However, the two Syrian families I've worked with were lower middle class, and the husbands/fathers were itching to start working as soon as possible. In fact, I ran into one of them the other day in the village. He proudly told me he'd found a job. Where? At the local pig farm. I was all set to sympathize, because, well, it's not quite a dream job for a former vet's assistant, much less for one who's a devout muslim. But no. "Ist Arbeit!" (It's work!) he said.
The Turkish family (political refugees) is middle class, the father, a former journalist, is trying hard to get a German drivers' license, hoping to get a job clearing the streets of snow in winter, the teenage daughter hates that it's going to take her that much longer to get to university (because she'll need a German leaving certificate/Abitur first) and is trying to cram as much German into her head and her days as will fit.
If any of them are indeed part of an invasion, I'm convinced that those who organized it will find themselves sorely disappointed by its effects.
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Frog. Heh, heh.
I saw what you did there.
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How is the social welfare state possible when paired with uncontrolled immigration?
That's exactly what Merkel has finally realized. The UK also. We're witnessing the complete cultural and religious transformation of Europe. It's going in fast motion, not slow. The frog in the pot never feels the heat until it's too late.
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How is the social welfare state possible when paired with uncontrolled immigration?
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Here a Wikipedia link to an article about the early migrations of humankind.
I think that since the ape stood up to walk on two feets he started migrating.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_human_migrations
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"Organized invasion" - thanks, Jerry, you made my day! Even if you did make me splutter coffee all over my desk. :D
I hope the coffee didn’t mess up your PC!
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"Organized invasion" - thanks, Jerry, you made my day! Even if you did make me splutter coffee all over my desk. :D
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@Sofia
Maybe you should broaden your newspaper reading to include papers outside of Europe.
Maybe you can cite your sources about this plan to flood Europe and some suggestions about the newspapers I should read.
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@Sofia
Maybe you should broaden your newspaper reading to include papers outside of Europe.
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@ Alharacas, I would add to your sister’s comment the difference between political and humanitarian refugees. Political refugees usually are more eager to learn the language and start eventually a new life in their host country. At least that is what I saw with the people from Chile, Argentina and Uruguay who fled in the seventies the dictatorship of their country. Some of their children are really doing a lot contributing to the political and social life of their new country.
@ SHL I think people have also more or less inconscious drives. They realistically know that it will be difficult to go back to Syria but their true real emotional wish is to go back and that plays them tricks. And by the way, I know Syrians who find the living conditions in Switzerland difficult even if they are better off financially than many working persons with a small salary. They find our “old” historical houses ugly and small if there isn’t an elevator. They don’t care about the beauty of the mountains and the parks on the lake. They may spend the whole day with closed shutters and watch Arabic TV (closed shutters makes me think of depression). Of course there are exceptions.
@ Jerry, countries and civilizations rise and go, nothing is eternal. But there is NO ORGANIZED PLAN of the migrants to invade Europe. How can you believe that? There are criminal smugglers that get rich shuffling migrants in small boats over the Mediterranean Sea but that’s a criminal activity like many others (I.e. trading arms or drugs).
Humankind ALWAIS MIGRATED to greener pastures when living conditions were bad. Your european ancestors did that going to the New World. Have you forgot what you read in history? Where did the native Americans come from? This is just an example among others.
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To add to SHL's comments, here in the U.S., there's been no reporting, that I know of, that any of the folks from Syria or any of the nations that are flooding into Europe plan to return to their countries. This is part of an organized invasion of Europe. Europe, as we know it, will be gone soon. That's no secret.
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I would find it hard to believe that Syrians would truly be believe that their sojourn in Europe was just a temporary stay until things got better back home. Even if things did get better, they can`t possibly believe life in Syria could ever match European standards in their lifetimes. It would be great if it could, but it doesn’t sound like they could realistically believe that.
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Sofia, my sister shrugged and said "Well, that's the difference between immigrants and refugees", when I grumbled about a Syrian family I was trying to help, who did not at all seem interested in learning German. And that made a lot of sense to me. Many Syrians seem to be under the illusion that they will be shortly returning to Syria, so they're just trying to weather the storm in Europe. Not much sense in learning more of the language than absolutely necessary, if that's the way you think, is there?
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@Jerry, expats working in international business don’t have necessarily to move always very often. That’s for the juniors. I met anglophone women, the typical upper class housewives and dedicated mothers, who lived 20 years in the country without knowing one word of French. But you are right they are not on welfare.
@ SHL personally I also resent people who do not make any effort to pick up the local language.
In the postwar economy there was a huge immigration in Switzerland of Italian, Spanish and Portuguese workers. Even if they still kept their own circles, culture, politics etc. they mostly learned the local language. When I look at the results of the integration of their children I feel a lot of admiration. The son of my hairdresser, a very smart looking and clever Portuguese lady who came here at the age of 16, is completing his master in astrophysics . He has already different offers for his PhD. The same happened to political refugees from Hungary in 1956, from Chekoslovakia in 1968 and Chile in 1973.
I am really worried about the integration of Syrian refugees. I do not know if it is the trauma that keeps them apart or something else.But the next generation will do well, I am sure of it. Especially the girls who aren’t spoiled by their mothers like the boys are , they will grab the opportunity to study and have a better chance.
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Steven, maybe Latinos don’t see the need to make the effort because they are so numerous. So they create a new Latino environment in California.
If you would migrate to Peru you would be a lonely Gringo and feel the need to speak the language of the authoctonous population.
.... I just forgot. American and British expat women who accompany their husbands to Europe where they work for big companies like Philip Morris or Procter and **** aren’t better than the Latinos migrants. They absolutely don’t learn a word of French and move around in closed social circles. They put their children in expensive private schools and rarely mingle with locals.
Yes, the Latino communities are large, especially in California, and in the Los Angeles area in particular, they have formed their own Spanish-speaking communities. Some of the cities are majority Spanish-speaking and Latino and they have created a fairly good-sized community where they can get by speaking only Spanish if they like. The children are all dual Spanish/English native speakers because they get the Spanish at home and English with their friends and at school. I think that it would behoove them to at least learn enough English to get by somewhat, and show an interest in it for the sake of the country they live in, but that seems to be lacking. It`s just showing respect for your host (I agree with you about those American and British expats living in a France and not learning a word of French. They should learn enough French to be mannerly, as Jerry so well put it. It just shows respect for their host country. They don’t have to become experts at it, but just learn enough to get by).
And yeah, if I had to live in Peru for some reason (that would be a bit of a let down, now wouldn’t it?), I would surely learn Spanish. I`d do it out of respect for the country and its people and to help me blend in as must as possible and not stand out like the lonely Gringo. And, speaking their language would make me warmly received. I`m sure of that. Plus, I doubt there are many who speak much English down there anyway.
I got really jumped on once on Italki for bringing this up about the Latino Spanish speakers, and many people used that lame excuse, “Well, these are poor people. Maybe they can`t afford it!” Excuse me, but I`m talking about people who own their own homes, shop in modern and nice Spanish-speaking stores, and spend plenty of money on things. Yes, they can afford a few language lessons. Besides, I think they`re even offered for free in some places. The Latino areas of LA are actually pretty nice for the most part. They are not slums by any measure.´
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American and British expat women who accompany their husbands to Europe where they work for big companies like Philip Morris or Procter and **** aren’t better than the Latinos migrants. They absolutely don’t learn a word of French and move around in closed social circles. They put their children in expensive private schools and rarely mingle with locals.
But how long do they stay in the country? And they aren't on welfare, are they? Those are two things that make all of the difference between Steve's example and yours.
I'm on your side though that they should learn some of the language. It's mannerly if nothing else. These women are also expected to mingle with the other wives. It's part of the promotions game. The same game is played when they're living in the US. The wife of the chairman of one of the car companies, for example, wouldn't socialize with my wife.
The Latinos are a huge consumer of social welfare programs here and it breeds resentment among us taxpayers. Most of them come here for a better life on the taxpayer dime. We all know this but no one wants to say it in public.
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Steven, maybe Latinos don’t see the need to make the effort because they are so numerous. So they create a new Latino environment in California.
If you would migrate to Peru you would be a lonely Gringo and feel the need to speak the language of the authoctonous population.
.... I just forgot. American and British expat women who accompany their husbands to Europe where they work for big companies like Philip Morris or Procter and Gamble aren’t better than the Latinos migrants. They absolutely don’t learn a word of French and move around in closed social circles. They put their children in expensive private schools and rarely mingle with locals.
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Sofia,
I don’t get the impression it's like betraying one`s roots, it`s more like Spanish native speakers here, I think, just really love their language. To them it´s just the “normal” way to speak. And that`s a very natural human phenomenon thoughout the world, especially for people coming from developing countries.
The utility of learning English for them here is abundant, as well as the opportunities, but the more we accomodate them, the less likely they`ll be motivated to learn. It`s a shame really. I know if I moved suddenly to Peru, for example, the first thing I`d do is enroll in a Spanish language class because it would make my life so much easier. I wouldn’t want to go around hoping everyone would speak Engish to me.
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@Sofia
Yes, I learned German 41 years ago (or started then) out of just falling in love with the language and country, like you said. It had nothing to do with utility. (...)
It a little annoying living in a place where people sort of want you to learn their language to make their lives easier, even though those same people live here themselves, in a place where Spanish is not the native language. It sounds a little backward to me.
I can understand your passion and I have trouble understanding migrants who don’t even try a little bit to learn the local language. I am totally puzzled by the Syrians I met here. There is only one young guy who truly is learning French. His wife (27 years old) was offered a six month intensive course with French and she refused. They are both middle class people from Damascus. They never will go back unless the regime changes. The same also for people who came from a rural context and are less educated. I have the impression that they believe in a way that learning the local language would be like betraying their roots.
Maybe it’s the same phenomenon with the immigrants from Latin America in your country.
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@Jerry
Useless as a screen door on a submarine. That’s a pretty good idiom and one I`ve never heard before.
I just commented on another thread pertaining to the often-heard, but false belief, that English was oh so easy to learn. It`s hard for me to say because I never learned English (like a non-native speaker I mean- I don`t use the verb “learn” with respect to native speakers acquiring their native language. It’s just a misnomer). One only need look at Italki`s discussion board and you`ll see how “easy” English is to learn, a discussion board riddled with grammatical errors in English, and sometimes unintelligible discussion topics. They do have some really fine non-native English speakers, but I´ve noticed that even their English can sound a but unnatural to me, a little wooden, like it came out of a book. It`s very subtle and many speak very well. But there’s a slight difference.
I mentioned that native speakers fall back much more on idioms, which aren’t really heavily taught in language courses, and even the really good non-native speakers either don`t know them or don`t use them. I mean those advertising the C2 Cambridge certificate and teach English on Italki. See how you said “useless as a screen door on a submarine”? Even a top-rated C2 Cambridge certificated and really good speaking non-native would never say that. In fact, there’s a lot of idioms they don’t even know because they tend not to be taught.
That’s why I favor a more street style of speaking, rather than sounding like you walked out of a textbook. It just adds an authenticity to the speech is all.
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@Sofia
Yes, I learned German 41 years ago (or started then) out of just falling in love with the language and country, like you said. It had nothing to do with utility. It really was a passion and still is. Spanish would have been utilitarian, yes, but it never really appealed to me. Neal said it sounded like mud to him. Well, I won`t say that, but Spanish has about as much attraction for me as mud. I don’t know why. Maybe the way it sounds or something. It`s probably more resentment than anything else. It`s a little annoying living in a place where people sort of want you to learn their language to make their lives easier, even though those same people live here themselves, in a place where Spanish is not the native language. It sounds a little backward to me.
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@ Neal,
Now, don’t put down old cars. They`re one of my passions too (as long as they are not rusting away in front yards). There`s nothing like the majestic beauty of a 1959 Cadillac with those fins. We used to have one growing up as a kid and I thought it was pretty cool. My mom let me stand up, or partly stand up, on the front seat driving around town when I was 5 so I could see out the window better. Safety first, Neal! Safety first. And seat belts? Forget about it. Whoever heard of seat belts? I think the front seat had them, as an option, but no one used them.
And the theory behind the heavy metal construction was safety. They thought if you built the cars with strong bodies they`d hold up better in an accident, but the problem was all the kinetic energy of a crash got transferred onto the occupants who became human torpedoes. But, now we’ve got those darm crumple zones that are like cardboard so that they take the impact in a crash. Okay, great but you pay for it if you even tap anything with the car. Bends, dings for the most minor of things and now it`s a repair bill of thousands. Terrible.
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Right, Steve should learn Spanish if he wants something that's useful. Especially in a law practice. The German language in California is as useless as a screen door in a submarine. Or as Steve would say, an Unterseeboot.
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Jerry,
Well, with the German roots you should study German. Forget that Georgian stuff. Like you said, no one is going to speak it anyway, and where are the resources to learn it even if it had utility?
Steven, don’t tell me that you are learning German because it is useful for you. I think that you rather fell in love with the language or/and the country. That’s one of the biggest motivation triggers, the one which works the best PASSION. How could anybody effectively learn a language without being passionate about it. Except Gryzzie, but maybe she just is pretending that she choose randomly Spanish and German.
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I had a junk car once. A 1949 Dodge Cornet that I sanded down to bare metal and repainted. Did the interior, had the motor overhauled, all on the cheap and amateur but it was fun. Didn't matter too much as the car is not really worth anything.
The problem was when I got in to drive it. It was fun enough, but it was from 1949! Compared to a modern car it was uncomfortable and drove like a tractor! So that pretty much ended my interest in it.
Not only do they drive like a tractor but they're death traps. Old cars are good enough to drive locally but other than that, they're a risk to drive on the interstate or even a busy highway. Contrary to popular belief, the thick, heavy metal these old beasts were made of are actually much less strong than the alloys modern cars use. I know you know this but most people don't.
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"boring to read"?? What do you mean, Sofia? I found a language that looks as if you'd accidentally typed on an upside down keyboard (Birzebugga, Imqabba, Marsaxlokk) so irresistible that I actually asked around on the island (about 25 years ago), but sadly was unable to find anybody willing to teach me.
I should have written « difficult ». It is easier for me to try to understand spoken news than to read a newspaper written in Maltese. I am not a « visual « learner.
Usually, for other languages that I never learned (I just mention Portuguese, Danish or Dutch), it is the contrary: reading is more accessible than listening.
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I had a junk car once. A 1949 Dodge Cornet that I sanded down to bare metal and repainted. Did the interior, had the motor overhauled, all on the cheap and amateur but it was fun. Didn't matter too much as the car is not really worth anything.
The problem was when I got in to drive it. It was fun enough, but it was from 1949! Compared to a modern car it was uncomfortable and drove like a tractor! So that pretty much ended my interest in it.
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"boring to read"?? What do you mean, Sofia? I found a language that looks as if you'd accidentally typed on an upside down keyboard (Birzebugga, Imqabba, Marsaxlokk) so irresistible that I actually asked around on the island (about 25 years ago), but sadly was unable to find anybody willing to teach me.
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I love Malti, the language spoken in the Mediterranean archipel of Malta by half a million people. It is considered originally a dialect of Arabic, from the ancient Siculo-arabic. The Semitic vocabulary was enriched by Italian words and English. On italki I had one lesson with a nice teacher. Malti or Maltese is written with a modified Latin alphabet with lots of dots that make it boring to read.
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Yes, I think I can relate to what you say about that soft spot, Jerry. Years ago I met a guy from Greenland and, well, if I'd had just a little additional motivation, I'm quite sure I'd have started to learn Inuit. ;D
At any rate, I can't understand people who say "Why learn language X? What for? You'd be much better off learning language Y!"
Whichever language you're learning, it's sure to teach you lots of things besides new words. And unless you're the Pope, there not that much use in being able to adress millions instead of hundreds or thousands, is there?
And while we're about it, I'm sure I'm not the only one who'd like to know more about what it's like to learn Georgian, Jerry. How long did it take you to come to grips with that beautiful alphabet? What do you find most frustrating? Are there lots of loan words? Which language do they come from? Russian only? If not, how do they change? (Let me give you a German-Polish example to show you what I mean: the German word Schlafrock (dressing gown) becomes szlafrok in Polish. So, the orthography changes, but the pronunciation remains pretty much the same.)
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That’s it Jerry. You got it. Good ol middle America.
California`s got that too. Hey, what all-American US town hasn’t got at least a few houses with one 1958 Edsel out front rusting away that doesn’t run? You can have the hound-dog tied to a tree guarding this treasure, or in the backyard with a Beware of Dog sign on the gate.
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a long lost uncle of yours...
And that he was Georgian. You really aren't a Hoosier unless you have a junk car up on blocks in your front yard. And of course you need a hound dog tied to a tree or laying on your front porch.
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Wouldn’t that be hilarious, Jerry, if one day you got a note in the mail that a long lost uncle of yours died and left you his lemon yellow 1958 Cadillac with the bent tail fin? Of course, it doesn’t run, and has a little rust, but they can tow it over and you can park it in your front yard? Like hitting the lotto. Oh, and they`ll throw in the pro-Trump stickers and American flags for free! :D
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Jerry,
Predictable in what way? So you liked my old car analogy?
It is a truly American phenomenen. Every town has these people. Sometimes they have three of these old rusting cars in the front yard, a 1952 Packard, a 1961 Ford T-Bird and like a 1959 Edsel. They´re rusting out, don’t run, and take up the whole front yard so these folks don’t have to mow a lawn. And the dream is someday they`ll fix em all up and drive them I guess. But that day never comes. Maybe they put them in their will or something then a lucky guy like you, Jerry, or Neal, inherits one from some distant uncle. :)
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Steve, you're so predictable. ::)
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Jerry,
Well, with the German roots you should study German. Forget that Georgian stuff. Like you said, no one is going to speak it anyway, and where are the resources to learn it even if it had utility? Sounds like a lot of work for nothing. I´m always thinking of analogies, so give me a moment. You know those guys in your town (this is sort of an American tradition guys so bear with me) that have like a 1952 rusting Packard parked on the grass in the front of their house that doesn’t run? You know, it`s an eyesore. But the owners thinks “Oh, some day I`ll put the time and money into restoring it and then it will be great” but he never does? Every town in the US has people like this. Even if he did restore the car and drive it around town, he might get a few people look at him and think “Oh what a cool old car” but that’s about as far as it would go. There`s no utility to it. Just something to show off to a few fairly disinterested people. I would think learning a little heard of and used language would be the same. Getting proficient in it would be nearly impossible due to lack of resources (like finding replacement parts for an old car) and once you reached your goal it wouldn’t pay off because you couldn’t use the language in any practical sense.
Just my 2 cents anyway, but if you want to learn Georgian have at it and good luck.
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To answer SHL, Chizuko and Sofia: I tutored several Georgians and found something intriguing about the people, country, and language. They seem to get a bad rap but I met some very interesting people. No one is perfect of course { not even Germans, Steve }. I've got a few friends there who are Mingrelians. They especially get a bad rap.
I'm Scottish, Irish, English, and German { eat your heart out Steve }, no Georgians that I know of.
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Georgian in Georgia in US?
There is a contingent of Georgians in NYC, but outside of that, Georgians are rare as hen's teeth.
What are you talking about? The old language during the King Georgia? Or Gruziya?, which is a country used to be in Soviet Union.
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Jerry, do you have Georgian ancestors?
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Jerry,
Why the interest in Georgian?
My goal was to read The Knight in the Panther's Skin in the original.
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Jerry,
Why the interest in Georgian?
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Ah, Truman, life is so short!
When I started with the language craze some years ago, I flirted with Swiss German (the apple of my eye) and some UK dialects such as Cockney Rhyming Slang and Brummie. I also flirted with a little bit of Irish, Estonian and I don’t know if Dutch and Greek qualify, but I will list them too.
Problem is: time!
So I started prioritising the languages I was studying that allowed me to communicate with more people (because communication plays a big part when it comes to learning languages for me).
I want to believe someday I will revisit some of them at some point in my life and I dream about places with dialects or where dying languages still exist (the New York language “scene” - can I use this word in this context? - fascinates me).
Good luck with your Georgian!
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Who else has a soft spot for languages that are generally not learned by non-native speakers of that language? I'm talking about languages that have absolutely no utility in one's life. My soft spot is for Georgian, for example. It's no surprise that it's totally and utterly worthless here in the states. There is a contingent of Georgians in NYC, but outside of that, Georgians are rare as hen's teeth. Georgian is interesting in that the alphabet is unique to Georgian. As far as I know, it doesn't borrow letters from any other alphabet.
Jerry = ჯერი