Author Topic: "Try to do" or "try doing"? (Read 2073 times)

Nikola · « **on:** March 21, 2019, 11:22:46 am »

This is going to be something between a question and a rant. I watched this video about the difference between "try to do" and "try doing". You don't have to watch the whole video, just have a little look at the board behind the teacher (it changes for the second part of the video) because all she says is written there already.

So I understand what she's saying and I would use these forms the same way she does in her examples. He tried to... (is was difficult, he probably failed). Try doing... (a suggestion, might work - might not). However, I couldn't help noticing that her "try to" examples were all sentences in the indicative mood (statements), while her "try doing" sentences were all in the imperative mood (commands, suggestions). She says one of the differences between the two is that with "try doing" we don't know the result. Well, how could we, if it's an imperative sentence? It always makes me suspicious when someone consistently uses examples that are not comparable. You get sentences such as "I tried calling him" or "try to think outside the box", right? They exist.
So this was the rant part, I don't like how she approaches it because in a way, it makes me more confused.

Now the question part: Is there any difference between a) I tried to call him and b) I tried calling him? Is the difference as she describes - a) I experienced difficulties despite trying my best vs b) I just tried it because... why not?
And what about c) Try thinking outside the box vs d) Try to think outside the box? I'm asking because they sound interchangeable to me. Correct me if I'm wrong.

NealC · « **Reply #1 on:** March 21, 2019, 11:35:34 am »

They are interchangeable ways to say the same thing. I kept puzzling about it, and I think she is falsely making her argument stronger by using try and tried - tried is past tense and that throws in a confusing variable.

On a practical level, I don't see a difference in your examples.

SuKi · « **Reply #2 on:** March 21, 2019, 12:04:56 pm »

Yes, the difference is real. It's all about what the final goal is.

The confusion comes when there is an overlap in meaning, as with your example. With your example, both statements basically amount to the same thing : you wanted to contact him, so you rang his number. But he didn't answer. In both cases, your sole aim was to speak to him on the phone and you didn't achieve it. The upshot is the same, so there is no practical difference.

A better example would be this:

I tried to lose weight.
I tried losing weight.

Here the difference is clearer, I think.

If I say 'I tried to lose weight', it means that I cut out the chocolate and cookies but I still failed to shed the kilos. My effort to lose weight was unsuccessful.

If I say 'I tried losing weight', it means that I did lose weight - but this had no effect in terms of my ultimate goal. Regardless of my new slim figure, my glamorous makeover and seductive new wardrobe, my love rat of a husband still wouldn't stay.

(Just a random scenario)

Kseniia · « **Reply #3 on:** March 21, 2019, 12:39:15 pm »

Quote from: SuKi on March 21, 2019, 12:04:56 pm

love rat of a husband

Ahh, it's simply brilliant! Can I refer to someone else's husband this way, too, or would it sound weird? I suppose it wouldn't be too polite anyway, but it would be a crime to leave this expression in my passive vocabulary only! ~~I wish I didn't read this post, I really have to find a way to use it in real life now...~~

SuKi · « **Reply #4 on:** March 21, 2019, 01:05:21 pm »

Quote from: Kseniia on March 21, 2019, 12:39:15 pm

Quote from: SuKi on March 21, 2019, 12:04:56 pm
love rat of a husband

Ahh, it's simply brilliant! Can I refer to someone else's husband this way, too, or would it sound weird? I suppose it's wouldn't be too polite anyway, but it would be a crime to leave this expression in my passive vocabulary only! ~~I wish I didn't read this post, I really have to find a way to use it in real life now...~~

I'm not sure anyone would seriously refer to their own spouse as a 'love rat'. It's pure tabloid journalism - it's a term that manages to be censorious and admiring at the same time. No female equivalent, of course.

Nikola · « **Reply #5 on:** March 21, 2019, 01:40:33 pm »

Great news. So Neal's comment proves I'm not crazy and SuKi's proves that the lady isn't crazy, either.

@SuKi

Oh my goodness, I just saw the quote under your user name. I'm still laughing.

Thanks for the explanation. So the difference is more obvious in some contexts. Let me just check that I get what you're saying:

I tried to lose weight = I tried and failed.
I tried losing weight = I tried (and succeeded to some extent) but things still didn't work out the way I wanted.

Is it correct?

SuKi · « **Reply #6 on:** March 21, 2019, 02:17:22 pm »

Yes, that's it.

If you say 'I tried to lose weight', we understand that it's the losing weight which is the challenge.

In the 'I tried losing weight' scenario, we understand that it's the keeping hold of the husband that's the challenge. The weight loss was easy - it was just one of the things I did in a vain effort to stop him straying. So, yes, things still didn't work out how you wanted.

That's why the lady on the video is going on about what's hard or not hard to do.

Kseniia · « **Reply #7 on:** March 21, 2019, 02:28:18 pm »

Quote from: SuKi on March 21, 2019, 01:05:21 pm

...It's pure tabloid journalism

I can't believe you make up all these absurd expressions in your language and do not use them outside tabloids! What a shame...

Nikola · « **Reply #8 on:** March 21, 2019, 02:44:01 pm »

@SuKi

It's a matter of focus then. It's whether the action is your main objective or not. So the same would apply to the imperative mood.

Try to lose weight. = Losing weight is the main thing you should focus on. Losing weight is what we're talking about.
Try losing weight. = Losing weight is one of the things that could help you achieve the thing that we're really talking about.

And in a negative imperative sentence, you have three options:

Don't try to... Don't try to scare her. = Don't take any deliberate action to scare her.
Try not to... Try not to scare her. = Avoid doing something that would scare her, intentionally or unintentionally.
Try not (gerund) Try not scaring her. = How about not scaring her this time? You normally scare people.

What do you think? Sorry if this is getting boring

SuKi · « **Reply #9 on:** March 21, 2019, 03:02:38 pm »

Quote from: Nikola on March 21, 2019, 02:44:01 pm

@SuKi

It's a matter of focus then. It's whether the action is your main objective or not. So the same would apply to the imperative mood.

Try to lose weight. = Losing weight is the main thing you should focus on. Losing weight is what we're talking about.
Try losing weight. = Losing weight is one of the things that could help you achieve the thing that we're really talking about.

And in a negative imperative sentence, you have three options:

Don't try to... Don't try to scare her. = Don't take any deliberate action to scare her.
Try not to... Try not to scare her. = Avoid doing something that would scare her, intentionally or unintentionally.
Try not (gerund) Try not scaring her. = How about not scaring her this time? You normally scare people.

What do you think? Sorry if this is getting boring

All looks good!

SuKi · « **Reply #10 on:** March 21, 2019, 03:07:55 pm »

Quote from: Kseniia on March 21, 2019, 02:28:18 pm

Quote from: SuKi on March 21, 2019, 01:05:21 pm
...It's pure tabloid journalism

I can't believe you make up all these absurd expressions in your language and do not use them outside tabloids! What a shame...

We don't "make things up"! What an idea. Didn't you know? The English language emerged fully formed in all its glory when God created the world. Like the Almighty, it is what it is.

Well, OK, we did make a few things up. Articles. Prepositions. Unnecessary use of bleedin' obvious personal pronouns. That sort of stuff. Mainly to annoy Russian speakers, of course.

Nikola · « **Reply #11 on:** March 21, 2019, 03:13:48 pm »

Quote from: SuKi on March 21, 2019, 03:02:38 pm

All looks good!

Thank you! Well, it wouldn't hurt her to explain all this, would it? It would only take like... an hour

NealC · « **Reply #12 on:** March 21, 2019, 04:45:45 pm »

"Love Rat"
I think the female equivalent would be "Snuggle Bunny".

SuKi · « **Reply #13 on:** March 21, 2019, 05:00:26 pm »

Quote from: NealC on March 21, 2019, 04:45:45 pm

"Love Rat"
I think the female equivalent would be "Snuggle Bunny".

Really?

NealC · « **Reply #14 on:** March 21, 2019, 05:05:10 pm »

Ahem. Well, I don't care what she calls me, but keeping in mind the ultimate objective, I better watch what I call her.

Snuggle Bunny. Yes.

Truman Overby · « **Reply #15 on:** March 21, 2019, 05:17:54 pm »

I don't have time to watch the whole vid so all I can add is that I don't believe that 'try doing' is very common in my lexicon. Maybe it is and I don't realize it. We know that happens with common, simple expressions. I'm going to be on the lookout and will report back my findings.

Kseniia · « **Reply #16 on:** March 21, 2019, 05:18:25 pm »

Quote from: SuKi on March 21, 2019, 03:07:55 pm

...Well, OK, we did make a few things up. Articles. Prepositions. Unnecessary use of bleedin' obvious personal pronouns.

Yes, and these are just for starters! But OK, I forgive you, he who is without sin... At least some prodigal sons and daughters seem to be returning to the fold nowadays: my heart rejoices when I hear native English speakers dropping auxiliary verbs when asking questions, for example. Finally, people start to realise what the Only Right Way of Speaking is! :)

SuKi · « **Reply #17 on:** March 21, 2019, 05:47:35 pm »

Quote from: NealC on March 21, 2019, 05:05:10 pm

Ahem. Well, I don't care what she calls me, but keeping in mind the ultimate objective, I better watch what I call her.

Snuggle Bunny. Yes.

You might want to check out what 'Love Rat' means, then. If Mrs Bunny starts calling you that, she might not want to do any more snuggling.

NealC · « **Reply #18 on:** March 21, 2019, 06:00:56 pm »

Ugh, the Urban Dictionary strikes again. Obviously I am not one of the cool kids.

SHL · « **Reply #19 on:** March 21, 2019, 08:42:14 pm »

I looked at this entire video and I can guarantee you this woman does not know what she is talking about. All her „advice“ is totally false and something she either just made up out of the whole cloth, or read in a book somewhere written by someone who knows nothing. „Try doing“ and „try to“ are totally synonymous.

She said „try to“ implies or means attempting something difficult (climbing Mt. Everest as an example). Okay, let`s use her rule here: „I tried (same as try just past tense) to pour myself a cup of coffee today but I was clumsy and it spilled all over the place.“ (She just said I have to say, „tried pouring...“. Not wrong, just not necessary either) Is it hard to pour a cop of coffee? Ah, no. Neal says, „I can`t slice the bread with this knife. The blade must be dull.“ I say, „Try to use this one, it´s brand new and sharp.“ (She says it has to be „try using“-possible, but unnecessary). Neal says, „yeah, when I tried to use that knife it it was easy.“ Or a mom says to her son, „try to hit the toilet bowl when you use the toilet please. I`m tired of cleaning up this messy bathroom floor.“ Does this woman think is a difficult task for any male to hit the toilet bowl when urinating? Absurd. What has this woman who did this video been smoking?

Okay, I just violated her rule number one, on the „to do“ verbs, very easily.

Now her „gerund“ example (gosh I hate that word „gerund.“ It reminds me of being 17-years old and not having a clue what it means). Now, according to this woman in the video, gerunds are supposed to imply things that are easy to do or are used in giving advice. Right?

„I am trying to run Neal´s greenhouse business today, but it`s impossible because I know nothing about the business.“ (Hard to do, for me and most people in all likelihood)“ Or, „he is trying climbing Mt. Everest but it´s pretty hard to do.“ Her rule number 2, just violated again even though the grammar is correct.

Alternate use: giving advice: She says a correct sentence is „try putting some salt on your potatoes...“ But what if you said. Boy, these potatoes are bland.“ I say „try to put some salt on them, they`ll taste better.“ (This should be a difficult task, per her rule number 1???), What´s the difference? Ah, none. Her rule violated in this instance too.

I`d say to this woman, „If you want to be a better English teacher, try to learn (she says it has to be „learning“, which is complete nonsense) real English grammar and not just make junk like this up.

SHL · « **Reply #20 on:** March 23, 2019, 05:54:58 pm »

Quote from: SHL on March 21, 2019, 08:42:14 pm

I looked at this entire video and I can guarantee you this woman does not know what she is talking about. All her „advice“ is totally false and something she either just made up out of the whole cloth, or read in a book somewhere written by someone who knows nothing. „Try doing“ and „try to“ are totally synonymous.

She said „try to“ implies or means attempting something difficult (climbing Mt. Everest as an example). Okay, let`s use her rule here: „I tried (same as try just past tense) to pour myself a cup of coffee today but I was clumsy and it spilled all over the place.“ (She just said I have to say, „tried pouring...“. Not wrong, just not necessary either) Is it hard to pour a cop of coffee? Ah, no. Neal says, „I can`t slice the bread with this knife. The blade must be dull.“ I say, „Try to use this one, it´s brand new and sharp.“ (She says it has to be „try using“-possible, but unnecessary). Neal says, „yeah, when I tried to use that knife and it was easy.“ Or a mom says to her son, „try to hit the toilet bowl when you use the toilet please. I`m tired of cleaning up this messy bathroom floor.“ Does this woman think is a difficult task for any male to hit the toilet bowl when urinating? Absurd. What has this woman who did this video been smoking?

Okay, I just violated her rule number one, on the „to do“ verbs, very easily.

Now her „gerund“ example (gosh I hate that word „gerund.“ It reminds me of being 17-years old and not having a clue what it means). Now, according to this woman in the video, gerunds are supposed to imply things that are easy to do or are used in giving advice. Right?

„I am trying to run Neal´s greenhouse business today, but it`s impossible because I know nothing about the business.“ (Hard to do, for me and most people in all likelihood)“ Or, „he is trying climbing Mt. Everest but it´s pretty hard to do.“ Her rule number 2, just violated again even though the grammar is correct.

Alternate use: giving advice: She says a correct sentence is „try putting some salt on your potatoes...“ But what if you said. Boy, these potatoes are bland.“ I say „try to put some salt on them, they`ll taste better.“ (This should be a difficult task, per her rule number 1???), What´s the difference? Ah, none. Her rule violated in this instance too.

I`d say to this woman, „If you want to be a better English teacher, try to learn (she says it has to be „learning“, which is complete nonsense) real English grammar and not just make junk like this up.

Chizuko · « **Reply #21 on:** March 23, 2019, 06:31:52 pm »

I didn't notice this topic. It looks interesting, but I have to got to bed now. I'll read them tomorrow.

SHL · « **Reply #22 on:** March 23, 2019, 09:32:21 pm »

Quote from: Chizuko on March 23, 2019, 06:31:52 pm

I didn't notice this topic. It looks interesting, but I have to got to bed now. I'll read them tomorrow.

Go ahead and watch the video, Chizuko, but don`t believe this woman. She doesn`t know what she`s talking about.

Chizuko · « **Reply #23 on:** March 24, 2019, 11:45:35 am »

I watched it and read all the comments above. I realized SHL was a lawyer. He is good at proving it is violated.

When I watched it first, I had the same question as Nikola's. "If you don't know the result, which is correct to use?" Then I understood Suki's examples. However, as BB(Beard Brain)said, I haven't heard "try ~ing" that much. It is because probably Japanese people learn American English at school.

This is just my guessing as a student.
I think that the usage of 'try to' is related to the tense not to the difficulty of the actions. Because you never know the result of the actions. When you know the result once, you don't have to say 'tried~ing'. You can say, 'did'.

Quote

I tried to lose weight = I tried and failed.
I tried losing weight = I tried (and succeeded to some extent) but things still didn't work out the way I wanted.

In this case, the second one means unsuccessful result too.so, non English speakers don't notice the difference from the first one. So Americans use alternative expressions when they started talking in their diverse culture.

This is my assumption.
I'd say when I knew the result and used the past tense.
I tried to lose weight, but I failed.
I lost my weight a little bit successfully, not perfectly though, I tried many methods.
'try + nouns' are seen in any situations. But I wouldn't say ' I tried taking many methods" or 'tried losing my weight'. It sounds confusing to me because I can't figure out what result was.

The past tense 'tried to' is seen in the failed situations obviously. But if the result was good, alternative expressions are used instead of 'try'. It's natural.
I tried to call him and wanted to say I was sorry. But he never answered the phone
I called him and said sorry. He forgave me. ← I wouldn't say, "I tried calling and said", if I knew the good result.

The present and future tense, 'try to' is used for giving a try.
Try to call him! He will forgive you.
Yeah, I'll try to do it tonight. (Usually, you say, "I'll call him.")
I climbed Mt.Fuji this year. I'll try to climb Everest next year.

In my brain,
try to vs try -ing doesn't exist.
try to(not result yet) vs tried to(unsuccessful result) exists.

P.S.
I watched the video again. Hold on...."try adding salt", "try speaking English" is also natural. It sounds familiar to me! ....mmm...I Gave up! I tried to figure it out., but I failed.

Chizuko · « **Reply #24 on:** March 24, 2019, 01:09:38 pm »

Sigh....I showed my silliness again. haha

I checked the grammar web site in Japanese. It was explained the same as Suki's comments. Of course, she is a wonderful teacher and I always trust her.
Also, I found the similar explanation to the teacher's in the video, too.

1. I tried to open the door.( But it didn't open)
2. I tried opening the door.(I opened it anyway, but it closed quickly automatically. It was like a magic.)(But again,if I was a speaker, I would say the latter detailed one to clarify it.)

OK, I see! I understood!
By the way, the both of 1 and 2 are translated the same in Japanese, so you need to add some words to clarify it anyway.

P.S.
Opening a door is always not difficult unlike climbing Everest. I doubt a little bit about the teacher in the video.
According to her explanation,
If you think it is hard, you say
Try to open the door.
If you think it is easy, you say
Try opening the door.

I need more real experience of language with native English speakers anyway.

Chizuko · « **Reply #25 on:** March 24, 2019, 05:41:23 pm »

Quote

I tried to lose weight = I tried and failed.
I tried losing weight = I tried (and succeeded to some extent) but things still didn't work out the way I wanted.

Quote

I tried to open the door.( But it didn't open)
I tried opening the door.(I opened it anyway, but it closed quickly automatically. It was like a magic.)

The examples above are told after you saw the result.

Quote

She said „try to“ implies or means attempting something difficult (climbing Mt. Everest as an example). Okay, let`s use her rule here: „I tried (same as try just past tense) to pour myself a cup of coffee today but I was clumsy and it spilled all over the place.“ (She just said I have to say, „tried pouring...“. Not wrong, just not necessary either) Is it hard to pour a cop of coffee? Ah, no. Neal says, „I can`t slice the bread with this knife. The blade must be dull.“ I say, „Try to use this one, it´s brand new and sharp.“ (She says it has to be „try using“-possible, but unnecessary). Neal says, „yeah, when I tried to use that knife and it was easy.“ Or a mom says to her son, „try to hit the toilet bowl when you use the toilet please. I`m tired of cleaning up this messy bathroom floor.“Does this woman think is a difficult task for any male to hit the toilet bowl when urinating? Absurd.

I think this is correct too. Which phrase can you use, try to or try-ing before you know the result that how easy it is? I think the real spoken English is more subjective to match the scenes.
I learned the differences between the English grammar in books and the real spoken English.

Chizuko · « **Reply #26 on:** March 24, 2019, 05:45:07 pm »

Quote

Don't try to scare her. = Don't take any deliberate action to scare her.
Try not to scare her. = Avoid doing something that would scare her, intentionally or unintentionally.
Try not scaring her. = How about not scaring her this time? You normally scare people.

Oh, I understand but I can't use them properly...My brain is going to explode. I have to go to bed now. I might see a dream of English grammar. Good night. Thank you, everyone. I learned a lot.

SHL · « **Reply #27 on:** March 24, 2019, 10:26:44 pm »

Chizuko,

I think my only point was when you over-complicate things, like the woman in this video does, you just waste studnet`s time, confuse them, and accomplish nothing. The alleged „rule“ she invented or found someplace is just not a rule at all. People are just not making the distinctions in speaking or writing she is suggesting. And, just giving her the benefit of the doubt, and assuming she were right and there was such a rule, at the least she should have said that this is literary style, or elevate style, but it`s okay to use the phrases interchangeably and to do so is then just colloquial. At least admit to student that they are not wrong is using the verbs in ways that deviate from her alleged rule. Instead, focus on things that matter, and on grammatical errors that are commonly made by non-natives as opposed to native speakers, and it would be a far more useful and practical exercise.

Chizuko · « **Reply #28 on:** March 25, 2019, 05:45:19 am »

Yeah, SHL, you are right. I just made it complicated.
I don't want to say it was waste of time. It is harsh to say so to me. I just tried and just failed. I don't like grammar in the first place though, I tried to understand.
"You never know what you can do until you try." It's my favorite phrase, even though I accomplish nothing.

Quote

but it`s okay to use the phrases interchangeably and to do so is then just colloquial. At least admit to student that they are not wrong is using the verbs in ways that deviate from her alleged rule. Instead, focus on things that matter, and on grammatical errors that are commonly made by non-natives as opposed to native speakers, and it would be a far more useful and practical exercise.

Oh, SHL, you should have told me this first, please. so that I would not have posted my silly comments of non-native speaker. I would not have wasted my time.

SHL · « **Reply #29 on:** March 26, 2019, 07:34:53 pm »

Quote from: Chizuko on March 25, 2019, 05:45:19 am

Yeah, SHL, you are right. I just made it complicated.
I don't want to say it was waste of time. It is harsh to say so to me. I just tried and just failed. I don't like grammar in the first place though, I tried to understand.
"You never know what you can do until you try." It's my favorite phrase, even though I accomplish nothing.

Quote
but it`s okay to use the phrases interchangeably and to do so is then just colloquial. At least admit to student that they are not wrong is using the verbs in ways that deviate from her alleged rule. Instead, focus on things that matter, and on grammatical errors that are commonly made by non-natives as opposed to native speakers, and it would be a far more useful and practical exercise.
Oh, SHL, you should have told me this first, please. so that I would not have posted my silly comments of non-native speaker. I would not have wasted my time.

Thank you Chizuko for the upvote. Neal and Jerry never give me these (not too many other people do either, so yours might the first)

I really don`t know if this woman in the video just made her rules up, or heard it someplace, or what. She`s not saying these wrongly, it just incomplete. She could have easily said, „this is stylistically better (her rules) but alternates are these (ignoring the differences she`s pointing out) and they are more colloquial“ and I think that would have been a better explanation for learners. That way the learners can decide how they want to speak, and most importantly be reassured that if they they don`t follow her rules they are not speaking grammatically incorrectly. For test taking this may matter, or publishing a book, but if you just want to speak like a native, you really don`t have to worry about her rules. And most language learners goals are just to speak like a native. How many people are expecting to publish papers or books in their foreign language? Seriously. With this woman`s rules, no one is going to hear the difference if they follow her rules or not. I don`t. I use both ways of saying these things and hear them all the time and don`t even notice the difference. The first time in my entire life I ever heard her rule was in this video. And, I thought, „wow she is overcomplicating things for non-natives“.

I pay a lot of attention to this in German for instance. Sometimes more than one preposition can be used with a verb to mean the same thing and is not wrong. Some can never be used. But, knowing there are two possible options, or more, is helpful because you know if you use one preposition instead of another, when both are okay, your not making a mistake. It just makes things easier. Maybe one might be stylistically better, or sound more educated. True. But, it depends on your goals, of course, so you have to tailor your speech to meet the goals. If you are practicing for the ILETS you need to know what the examiners want to hear and parrot it back to them (whether you like it or not). All good test takers know that. Give the examiner what he/she wants. Even if you think it is unnecessary or being picky on their part. Put your pride aside.

I`ve found that being too formal in writing can get you into trouble unless you really are skilled at the language. That´s why I favor the colloquial speech, which everyone is going to understand and is what the average guy on the street will understand. It´s just far safer that way. You`ll sound more native, and that´s the goal probably of most people anyway.

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Author Topic: "Try to do" or "try doing"? (Read 2073 times)

Kseniia

Kseniia

Truman Overby

Kseniia