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Author Topic: Bags  (Read 1776 times)

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Re: Bags
« Reply #30 on: February 26, 2019, 09:54:23 am »
Thanks Susan.

@Erik
I always find it strange when someone asks me to get something out of their bag or coat pocket for them. Makes me feel slightly uncomfortable.
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Re: Bags
« Reply #31 on: February 26, 2019, 11:48:57 am »

Nikola asked 'So if Neal asked you, SuKi and Susan, "where's your pocketbook?" (like this, without any context), would you not have the slightest idea what he meant?'

...

I would be confused. 'Pocketbook' suggests a small notebook for writing in. I'd probably presume it was some form of nifty new tech device that I hadn't heard of - Notebook, MacBook, that kind of thing. I would not think "Book = bag".

There again, 'purse' would also confuse. As you know, 'purse' has a different meaning outside N. America. In BrE, a purse isn't a bag: a purse is just for money. It's small enough to hold in the palm of your hand, and has a zip or a clasp on the top. This is what distinguishes it from a wallet, which opens like a book (I wonder if that's where the whole 'pocketbook' idea comes from?).

If Neal were to ask me where my purse was, I'd probably realise that he meant 'handbag', as we are used to hearing about women's 'purses' from American media. 'Pocketbook' is less well-known, so that would almost definitely throw anyone not from the US.  So if he is considering retraining as a mugger on the mean streets of London, he'd better brush up on the local lingo ;)
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Re: Bags
« Reply #32 on: February 26, 2019, 11:55:13 am »
Thanks SuKi.

I don't think he is but he might write a novel about it.
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Truman Overby

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Re: Bags
« Reply #33 on: February 26, 2019, 01:46:41 pm »
I'm speculating that anyone born after 1975 in the US wouldn't refer to or know a purse or a handbag as a pocketbook. My mother, who was born in 1939, used the term pocketbook in the 1960s. She doesn't use that term now and I can't remember the last time I heard it anywhere. It might be more common in the south of the US. But that's just a guess.

I think purse is the commonest term to use in speech.
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Kseniia

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Re: Bags
« Reply #34 on: February 26, 2019, 03:14:01 pm »
Oh, your discussion on pocketbooks/purses reminds me of my childhood trauma. When I was 13 or 14, I listened to "Panic! At The Disco" and after their "Build God, Then We'll Talk" () I decided that "purse" was a dirty word because for the line "She spilled her purse and her bag, and held a purse of a different kind" in the Russian translation there was a note, "sexual innuendo". So I decided to stay on the safe side and never to say "purse" at all, just in case :)

Anyway, here's my take on Chinese bag names. Basically, in Chinese, there's a (bāo)/(dài) dichotomy, so here goes:

1. 包包 (bāobāo)
2. (shǒudài; 手 = hand)
3. (bèibāo; 背 = back) or (shūbāo; 书 = book) for schoolbags (they are a bit different, though; in Russian the latter would be ранец)
4. Not sure about this one, but I'd say 运动背 (yùndòng bèibāo). Technically it means sport rucksack, but I think it's possible to use it to say "sport bag". Maybe I'm wrong (hopefully someone will be able to correct me)
5. (dàizi) - this is the most common term, I think. I'm pretty lazy so I usually call 5-10 袋子 even though I know that sometimes it's not exactly right (shame on me!)
6. (dàizi)
7. I think the right term is 垃圾 (lèsèdài) but in Walmart it's 黑色塑料 on price tags (hēisè sùliàodài; lit. black-coloured plastic bag), and as I said, I usually just say 袋子.
8. 塑料 (sùliàodài; 塑料 = plastic)
9. (zhǐdài; 纸 = paper)
10. (zhǐdài)
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Re: Bags
« Reply #35 on: February 26, 2019, 05:23:32 pm »
While people out here understand pocketbook, I`d classify it as old-fashioned and regional. No one uses the word, unless they are from out-of-state. In the mid to West Coast I might want to amend what I said, earlier. Number 1 is what we used to call a purse and 2 the wallet or women`s wallet  Sounds like pocketbook is East Coast, or Northeast Coast to me. I remember hearing „She`ll hit you with her purse“ so it had to be the big bag women carried with the straps. You don`t hit people with a wallet. And number 3, again, is a carry on bag for a plane. I have two of those I take to Europe. One I check in and one I carry on board. It looks like a piece of luggage to me.

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Re: Bags
« Reply #36 on: February 26, 2019, 10:04:20 pm »
@Kseniia

Bāo? I don't know how important the line above the a is or whether there's any connection or not but I immediately thought of these:



They do look like tiny bags.

ранец? That is so funny. We have the word ranec. It's a type of sack, one that Hloupý Honza (Stupid John), the famous Czech fairy tale character, would carry with him while on a quest for a beautiful princess. It was just folded fabric attached to a stick and it had buchty (traditional sweet pastry) in it. It's not really used in this context anymore, other than in fairy tales. It has become a colloquialism meaning "lots of money".
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Kseniia

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Re: Bags
« Reply #37 on: February 27, 2019, 10:44:47 am »
Nikola, the line above the a is pretty important, it's one of the ways to denote the first tone in pinyin. For example, 雹暴 (báobào; 2nd tone + 4th tone) would mean "hailstorm". And yes, your intuition is perfect: in the word bāozi the first character is indeed 包 (so, 包子). Makes total sense, doesn't it? :)

Hah, well, in Russia small schoolchildren still wear ранцы. It's even more common in China. As I said, they're a bit different from rucksacks: they're usually a little smaller and they're made of more firm material so they hold their shape. I wouldn't mind having one with buchty in it, though :) As for Hloupý Honza, is he a positive character? I suppose, since now ranec means "lots of money", he probably gets rich in the end of most tales, am I right?

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Re: Bags
« Reply #38 on: February 27, 2019, 11:52:27 am »
@Kseniia

So bāozi is what you call the buns? And it consists of one character from No. 1 bāobāo and one from No. 5 dàizi. So half a bag and half another bag make a bun?

Oh I see, we call the school bag aktovka, which is also the word for a briefcase. Comparing Slavic languages is like playing associations, don't you think?

Yes, Hloupý Honza is a positive character. It usually turns out he's not stupid at all and he wins the princess and half a kingdom.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2019, 09:50:38 am by Nikola »
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Re: Bags
« Reply #39 on: February 27, 2019, 12:57:50 pm »
In Italian the basic words are borsa and sacco.
1. borsa
2. borsetta (I think)
3. zaino
4. borsa
5. sporta (I always assumed this word was derived from the verb portare = "to carry", but I've just checked and apparently it actually comes ultimately from Greek σπυρίς = "basket"; the dictionary also says that it's a large bag, but I've only ever heard it used for this kind of bag)
6. shopper seems to be the current trendy name for these, though I've also seen/heard it used for No. 5 (is the word shopper used in this sense in English these days? I've never heard it myself, and it wouldn't be unheard of for made-up "English" words to be used in Italian); both 5 and 6 could also be called borsa (di plastica), which is what I generally call them.
7. sacco (dell'immondizia)
8. sacchetto (di plastica)
9. & 10. sacchetto (di carta)
There's also the word tracolla which can be used for a bag with a shoulder strap; and sacca, but I haven't figured out yet exactly what kind of bag it is and how it's different from a sacco.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2019, 09:29:56 am by Coligno »
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Kseniia

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Re: Bags
« Reply #40 on: February 27, 2019, 03:52:13 pm »
So half a bag and half another bag make a bun?
Not quite. Actually 子 (zi) doesn't mean much here because here it is used as a noun suffix. In Chinese nouns tend to be multisyllabic, and one-character nouns can be "harmonised" by adding 子 (zi). However, you don't have to add any suffixes if there is something (e.g. an adjective) that makes the word a bigram, for example:
子 (hézi) = box
but
(mùhé) = wooden box

Comparing Slavic languages is like playing associations, don't you think?
Absolutely agree! Plus, it's always nice to hear that in another Slavic-speaking country there's such a nice character that is happy enough with just half a kingdom :)

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Re: Bags
« Reply #41 on: February 28, 2019, 09:50:15 am »
@Coligno
Google images for "sacca" show mostly drawstring bags.

@Kseniia
So "zi" is a loyal friend who keeps the other character company when there are no other characters around.
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Re: Bags
« Reply #42 on: February 28, 2019, 02:40:58 pm »
Okay, if we're trying to get a full set here, then Spanish is still missing, isn't it?

It's almost as simple as in English, but it still took me ages to get it right:

"bolso", -o being the masculine ending, is always used for a woman's handbag - thank you, Spanish.
 
Everything else can be called "bolsa": bolsa de plástico, bolsa de viaje/deporte, bolsa de papel, etc.

Except of course for the backpack, which is "mochila".

And if it's Sack in German (big, no handles), then it's "saco" in Spanish (mind you, that's also the word for a man's jacket, which happens to be Sakko in German  ;D).

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Re: Bags
« Reply #43 on: February 28, 2019, 04:09:17 pm »
So now we've seen it in Czech, Russian, German, English (British, American and how they speak at Neal's house), Japanese, Portuguese, Irish, Chinese, Italian and Spanish. Awesome.
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