Even Greener Pastures

If you spotted a mistake in the title, chances are you're one of the people who experience this once in a while:



The compulsive need to stick an apostrophe where there's an "s" without putting too much thought into it has always fascinated me. I've seen native speakers do this, even teachers. I've seen labels on drawers saying "pen's" and "scissor's". Someone had typed those words and printed out the labels, someone else had laminated them and someone else had cut them out and stuck them on the drawers... and not one of them thought "hang on a minute".

Where do you stand? Does this bother you at all?

This is very common in the states. You'll see mailboxes, for instance, that say "The Smith's." I notice it but then move on with my life. What bugs me more is people dropping ending Gs. I've heard there are support groups.

That drives me crazy! I could understand that foreigners who just arrived in the country make this kind of mistakes but not the Smiths!
@Truman, I don’t understand what you mean by „people dropping ending Gs“

Runnin' Jumpin' Talkin' Laughin'...

That's not really a new thing, though. These Boots Are Made for Walkin'...

Quote from: The Artist formerly known as Truman Overby on June 19, 2019, 03:45:00 pm

This is very common in the states. You'll see mailboxes, for instance, that say "The Smith's." I notice it but then move on with my life. What bugs me more is people dropping ending Gs. I've heard there are support groups.

That drives me crazy! I could understand that foreigners who just arrived in the country make this kind of mistakes but not the Smiths!
@Truman, I don’t understand what you mean by „people dropping ending Gs“

I agree that the Smiths should know better. Perhaps it's a difficult decision for them. They can either write it incorrectly or have the apostrophe enthusiasts ask "Shouldn't there be an apostrophe there? It looks wrong." For all we know, the Smiths might be stuck between the hammer and the anvil.

I agree that the Smiths should know better. Perhaps it's a difficult decision for them. They can either write it incorrectly or have the apostrophe enthusiasts ask "Shouldn't there be an apostrophe there? It looks wrong." For all we know, the Smiths might be stuck between the hammer and the anvil.

They surely have to choose between Scylla and Charybdis. Poor things.

Quote from: The Artist formerly known as Truman Overby on June 19, 2019, 06:43:13 pm

Runnin' Jumpin' Talkin' Laughin'...

That's not really a new thing, though. These Boots Are Made for Walkin'...

What I mean are the people who do it in everyday speech, not artistic license. Lots of Americans do it and there's a particular British dialect/accent that does it. I heard it all over italki from teachers from certain parts of England.

I think one of the things I liked about German a lot was being able to forget about the apostrophe, and I always agreed it really was a Deppenapostroph, the dummies‘/idiot‘s apostrophe, because it doesn’t really serve much of a purpose. If you write „Johns shoes“ what do you need an apostrophe for? It is kind of dumb. Why is it supposed to be „John‘s shoes?“ Are there guys named „Johns“ compared with others out there just named „John“? Not that I‘ve ever heard of. Yeah, I really don’t get the need for it.

I really haven’t seen much of a problem around here with people misusing the apostrophe because I doubt any of them know what one is anyway...you really can‘t expect much from the locals around where I live They are not geniuses. If anything I’m quite sure the tendency is to leave it out.

I had to read the allegations in a restraining order today for some consultation I had, and I was really struggling to read what the wife wrote, it was that bad. It was like „an He grab belt and hold it on me throat....and I fraid for mi life“.  And these are native speakers? I thought I was reading something a 10 year old wrote. It’s really that bad. And this woman was not mentally disabled or anything.


 What I rarely see is the g getting dropped, except in speech. That’s probably more a regional thing, like where Jerry lives, „I‘m fixin to go fishin.“ Sounds awfully mid-western/southern to me. Or sometimes you get an „a“ in front of it for no reason, like „I‘m a fixin to go fishin.“ How the „a“ found its way in there, I have no idea.

I think what drives me nuts is when you have a noun already ending in an s and you have to add an apostrophe or something to show possession. So, since I guess it would just look too weird to say „Mr. Peters`s shoes“ you have to write „Mr. Peters‘ shoes“. But, then I always get confused when it‘s supposed to be „Mr. Peterses shoes“. So, is it just an apostrophe out there hanging at the end or an es? Those two are the only ones that drive me nuts. I do what Alharacas does, and just go by what looks right, based on what I suppose I‘ve seen before written. English is so non-phonetic you really have to rely on memory of what looks right most of them time anyway.

@Alharacas

Idiot's apostrophe - I love that. I think I'm lucky because my short-term memory is quite poor so I don't tend to unlearn things (this obviously only works in your favour if what you learned in the first place is correct). However, I have experienced moments where I hesitated after almost writing "it's" where there should be "its". This is something I wouldn't have done years ago when I was learning English at school.

@SHL

I know what you mean about words ending with "s". Those words just never look right. I was writing a post about the log Alharacas had started and I wrote "Alharacas' idea" and I was just staring at it because it looked wrong.

In theory, what doesn't have any function in language stops being used but in this case, it's being overused instead. I mean, it does have some function. Without the apostrophe, you wouldn't know if something belongs to one person or a group of people (my sister's clothes vs my sisters' clothes) but it can also cause confusion because it looks like the contracted form of the verb "to be". If you say "John's cold", does it mean "John is cold" or "John's cold (is getting worse)"?

That’s a very good point, Nikola. When you contract the verb to be, you end up with John‘s cold (he feels cold) and also John‘s cold (the illness) and it is ambiguous. I think educated people recognize this and use alternatives. For instance, I might say „John‘s cold“ (he‘s feeling cold), but if I were writing it out or sensed any ambiguity in the context I was speaking, would just say, „John is cold.“ That resolves the problem. Rarely would I just say „John‘s cold (the illness) without more context, like „John‘s cold is not getting better“ and that resolves the ambiguity too. So, yes, there is the potential for ambiguity, but I think we work around it to be clear.


Actually in law, I‘ve found ways around the use of the apostrophe in cases where plurals are used and need to show possession. So, for example, in a civil case the person suing is the plaintiff and the party being sued the defendant. (German uses the same sort of terms, der Kläger (plaintiff), der Beklagte (defendant) in civil cases).  Coincidentally, German law changed the words in 2003 in divorce cases, just like California did in 1970, to soften up the feel of a divorce on the parties to make them feel one wasn’t really “suing“ the other, like in a civil case, which was just a semantics game since nothing else really changed. So, according to my attorney friend, in a modern German divorce case, the former Kläger is now der Antragsteller (what we call a Petitioner), and the opposing party is der Antragsgegner (we call a Respondent). (Of course, I gave the masculine of the nouns as examples and the words would change a bit if I were referring to females, like a man would be der Antragsteller, a woman die Antragstellerin.)

Instead of the apostrophe, I fall back on „of“ to avoid it in civil cases with multiple plaintiffs and defendants. For example, I would write the title to a specific pleading in court like this: „Opposition of Plaintiffs to Demurrer of Defendants to First Amended Complaint.“ That way I avoid the clumsy looking „Plaintiffs‘ Opposition to Defendants‘ Demurrer to First Amended Complaint.“

I just think it stylistically looks a lot better to avoid that apostrophe at the end of a plural noun ending in „ s“ by flipping the words around and using „of“ instead. A few lawyers will still write it with the apostrophe, but I learned a long time ago how to play with the words to avoid it.

True. But, the reality is Americans (and I‘d say Canadians, Australians and Brits included) don’t really give two hoots in h*ll about English punctuation and never even think about it. Editors for book publishers, and newspapers, yeah. But, the rest of the population? Ah, no. I seriously don‘t anyone other than English majors at Ive League Universities care a bit of where a comma belongs a sentence, or an apostrophe an apostrophe for that matter. They should know the difference between it‘s and its, but beyond that, it‘s not seen as important.