Even Greener Pastures

Well, I don't want to delve too deeply into this but here's what I found:



(watch from 1:55)

Steve, I don't claim to be a German speaker but it's been disproven years ago that JFK did not say that he's a jelly doughnut. The wording was twisted to make a joke or to embarrass the man. I'd like to have Susanne set this straight.

NEAL! What is happening to my posts? I posted a detailed reply to this earlier and poof! It’s no where to be found!

So, now I have to start all over again. Ugh.

It was probably too long anyway, like most of my posts, so I’ll summarize (I did really want Alharacas to see it because she’s the expert). This is not starting out to be a good day and I think my blood pressure is going up! And I probably need another blood pressure pill and should take another tranquilizer!

Anyway, yes Jerry there has been a controversy about this for the last 40 years. The controversy was popularized in the 1980s when we all laughed and said “JFK made a fool of himself in Berlin with his “Ich bin ein Berliner” speech. He just said he was a jelly donut.”  (I love Berliner Pfannkuchen by the way. I always buy them with coffee, but in a bakery I go to in Berlin, but they just call them a Berliner).

I read both the German and English Wikipedia articles on it and looked at a few other sources. Obviously, no one in the crowd thought JFK was referring to himself as a jelly donut, so there was no misunderstanding. In fact, JFK didn’t even speak any language other than English, and certainly not German, so he had professional translators write the line and a couple of other lines in German he interjected into his English speech. He wrote notes of how he thought they should be pronounced (he had a very heavy American accent- in fact he uttered another line or two in German that I could barely understand because of the accent was so heavy).

What JFK meant to say was he felt in solidarity with the people of Berlin. So, his speech writer should have said THAT in German and not relied on that lousy translation (my opinion). When you think about it, it would have been equally as confusing and wrong had he said “Ich bin Berliner” because he didn’t live there, and that would have sounded silly too.

These are two things I culled from the internet:

“Kennedy’s famous line was penned by someone who was raised within Berlin itself and was an accomplished and highly regarded translator in his own right. In proclaiming “Ich bin ein Berliner,” therefore, JFK was no more referring to himself as a pastry than someone calling himself a “New Yorker” would have been understood by Americans as styling himself to be a magazine or a town car. Just as “I’m American” and “I’m an American” are both correct, so are “Ich bin ein Berliner” and “Ich bin Berliner.” (In fact, some German speakers would regard the former to be the more correct for someone who was speaking figuratively, as Kennedy was.)”

I personally disagree with the author, but maybe that’s just my preference. (I’ve just never heard anyone say “Ich bin ein Berliner” before or anything like it.)

Another quote is telling;


“Despite widespread claims to the contrary in most German grammars and textbooks, it is not incorrect to use an indefinite article before an indication of a person's origin, profession. As explained in the Duden-Grammatik: "Der indefinite Artikel wird beim prädikativen Nominativ [...] oft weggelassen, wenn damit die Zugehörigkeit zu einer sozial etablierten und anerkannten Gruppe (Nationalität, Herkunft, Beruf, Funktion, Weltanschauung, Religion, gesellschaftlicher Status usw.) angegeben wird (a). Zum Teil bestehen regionale Unterschiede im Gebrauch; ein strikter Standard hat sich nicht herausgebildet (b): (a) Sie wird _ Hochbauzeichnerin. Er bleibt _ Junggeselle. (b) Er ist (ein) Engländer. Sie ist (eine) Heidelbergerin." (Duden-Grammatik, 8. ed. 2009, p. 331”

Duden might say that the indefinite article is “often” omitted with certain nouns, but that was not what I was taught in the 70s and 80s. I was taught it was always omitted with certain nouns and it is not optional to omit it. And, I’ve never heard anyone use an indefinite article not followed by an adjective before those certain sorts of nouns, either in writing or in speech. Not once. The rule is if the noun is not preceded by an adjective, the indefinite article ein or eine is omitted as long as the noun refers to origin, profession, an official position, a worldview, a religion, or a social status. Then examples are given. That’s what I learned and all I’ve ever heard when native speakers speak and I’ve never seen it written otherwise, ever.

By the was, here’s a Berliner. They’re great.

"NEAL! What is happening to my posts? I posted a detailed reply to this earlier and poof! It’s no where to be found!"

Oh thank God.

Uhhh, I mean, it must be Nikola's fault!

Neal, now be nice. You’re one of the nice New Yorkers. What’s up with this “Oh thank God”? I hope you don’t turn into one of these people from Queens or Brooklyn, with that attitude. Like that clip I posted once about Bud Light. This guy is teaching foreigners how to order a Bud Light in a bar all over the country. People were just normal, with a regional accent, but in NYC the guy said you say, “Hey. A  Bud Light. You got a problem with that?” See that attitude?

In LA it was “ Hey Holmes, a Bud light dude..”  Mellow.

Jerry will have to tell us how to order one in Indiana.

OK. I’m gonna blame Nikola from now on for this “selective censorship.” (I took a chill pill so I’m feeling happier now 

Nikola, where you hiding out?

Nikola, where you hiding out?

She might be playing soccer.

On the other hand, you know, after I'd posted my - perhaps unnecessarily flippant - comment, it did cross my mind that it was probably quite fortunate Khrushchev hadn't decided to wall off Vienna instead.

It appears that I am missing something.  Someone please enlighten me.

Sorry. Bad joke, Irena.

Citizen/s of Berlin = Berliner
Citizen/s of Vienna (Wien) = Wiener

Oh! So you meant something like whiner? Funny. I thought you were referring to some type of food or drink or something.

The LA one is not "Holmes", they are not at 221B Baker Street with Watson.  It is "Homes", like Homie, or Home boy.
Sigh
I thought you lived there once?

Nah, they say “Holmes”, at least that’s what is sounds like in Oakland, in the SF Bay Area, to me anyway. Of course, I’m too sophisticated to talk like that myself,  so I don’t pay too much attention. But, you are probably right. Homes, is more like Homey, or like you are from the hood. 

Quote from: SHL on June 14, 2019, 08:44:39 pm

Nikola, where you hiding out?

She might be playing soccer.

I was at a "soccer" game, actually. They just wouldn't let me play for some reason What did I miss?

Quote from: SHL on June 14, 2019, 06:12:52 pm

NEAL! What is happening to my posts? I posted a detailed reply to this earlier and poof! It’s no where to be found!

Are you sure you really posted it, Steven? Don't get me wrong, I'm just trying to make sure, because this is potentially quite worrying, you know.

Duden might say that the indefinite article is “often” omitted with certain nouns, but that was not what I was taught in the 70s and 80s. I was taught it was always omitted with certain nouns and it is not optional to omit it. And, I’ve never heard anyone use an indefinite article not followed by an adjective before those certain sorts of nouns, either in writing or in speech. Not once. The rule is if the noun is not preceded by an adjective, the indefinite article ein or eine is omitted as long as the noun refers to origin, profession, an official position, a worldview, a religion, or a social status. Then examples are given. That’s what I learned and all I’ve ever heard when native speakers speak and I’ve never seen it written otherwise, ever.

You won't get any argument from me, Steven. I definitely agree with you more than with Mr. Duden's heirs in this instance - if anybody said something like "Ich bin ein Professor" to me, I'd conclude they either weren't a German native speaker or quite urgently needed their head examined.
But as it was, everybody just appreciated the sentiment, I think - it wouldn't have occurred to anybody to start quibbling about whether or not the indefinite article was surplus to requirements.


On the other hand, you know, after I'd posted my - perhaps unnecessarily flippant - comment, it did cross my mind that it was probably quite fortunate Khrushchev hadn't decided to wall off Vienna instead.

Thank you Alharacas,

Yes, this is what I always thought. Obviously no one would have been confused about what JFK meant with his “Ich bin ein Berliner” comment because the sense that he was expressing solidarity was clear. But, that doesn’t make it especially good grammar.

I enjoyed Jerry’s Huffington Post article wherein the German linguistics professor in Berlin is cited saying that the language JFK used was “grammatically absolutely acceptable.” Ah, it’s hard to argue with someone credentialed like that, but that is certainly NOT what I was taught, and it is not what I experienced. Quite the contrary. I had it drilled into my head 40 years ago that you never use the indefinite article ein/eine with certain nouns that designate, a fundamental characteristic of a person, specifically those having to do with ethnicity, citizenship, profession, religion, social status, place of origin, sort of the group a person might belong to, unless an adjective is placed between the indefinite article and the noun.  On the contrary, you have to use the indefinite article with some nouns describing people. When you are talking in generalities about a person that don’t go to fundamental characteristics, then it’s different, like saying “Er ist ein Idiot.” That’s where German can be tricky and knowing these small nuances really matters.

This is why when I heard JFK say “Ich bin ein Berliner” an alarm bell went off in my head with a flashing red light, saying WRONG!! But, in this case perhaps it was the translator just taking a sort of poetic license of sorts. He couldn’t obviously have had JFK say “Ich bin Berliner” because JFK wasn’t a resident of Berlin or from there, so that would never have worked. The alternative of using ein to communicate a sense of solidarity, although being an outsider is interesting, but I’ve never heard anything like that before, and I would suspect the vast majority of native German speakers haven’t either. And, how many would really use this very rare nuanced use of ein in this way ? Probably no one.

I have that 2009 version of Duden Grammatik, 8.Auflage, pps. 331-332 where they say the indefinite article is “often” omitted. My experience is that it is always omitted with certain nouns.

But, then Duden Grammatik really gets into some advanced detail that most people just aren’t going to learn in most language schools.

Steve you might want to type your message on word or something and then copy it over, just as added insurance nothing is lost.  I have certainly had instances on here where I wrote something out that took a while, pressed the wrong button, and boom it is gone.

Steve, you are adamant it is bad German, but you also cannot seem to find a way to say it.  If you think about it, Kennedy was making a hard to express point, an abstract idea, not something in regular discourse.  Perhaps it is just hard to make that point in German?

Remember when the French Magazine Charlie Hebdo was attacked by terrorists?  Everyone was expressing solidarity with them by the French phrase "Je suis Charlie".  Perhaps the sentiment is easier to express in 'romantic' French than the more 'logical' German?

Quote from: Irena on June 14, 2019, 09:43:20 pm

Quote from: Alharacas on June 14, 2019, 09:37:50 pm

Sorry. Bad joke, Irena.

Citizen/s of Berlin = Berliner
Citizen/s of Vienna (Wien) = Wiener

Oh! So you meant something like whiner? Funny. I thought you were referring to some type of food or drink or something.

Irena, you aren't by any chance trying to get me to drop myself in it again, are you? (Not that you'd tried to do that the last time, I know that! Managed to do that all on my own. Still...)
https://www.macmillandictionary.com/dictionary/british/wiener

That MacMillian dictionary is a good example of why, just because something is in a dictionary, doesn’t mean it’s 100% correct all the time.

Wiener=Frankfurter:  At least where I live (and I always preface what I say with this because this may not be true in other parts of the country, so I’m not saying this is some kind of rule),  but this only appears on packages in supermarkets. Yes, the package will say “wieners” or “frankfurters”, but people don’t really call them that normally. For someone to call them that would sound unusual to me.  Maybe once in a while, but usually they’d just refer to them as “Hot Dogs.” I personally never use the word wiener or frankfurter ever, to refer to anything. I know what it means, but it’s just not part of my active English vocabulary. Maybe it’s because I know Wiener and Frankfurter as German words and I think they don’t make good English loan words (Lehnwörter).

To say a “wiener” is a pejorative word for a weak person? That’s maybe true in some places, but that’s not what I heard as a kid growing up. We said, “You wienie.” Not “wiener.” And, as far as it being a slang word for p e n i s, yeah, maybe once. Like in the 1960s, but not now. I don’t think I’ve heard anyone use it as such in so long I can't even say when. There’s too many other more modern slang words to pick from.

Oh I totally get that Neal. But, notice the qualification “today” I am a New Yorker?

Of course no one is going to mistake that as meaning the person is saying he’s a Chrysler of some sort today.  And, of course no one thought JFK was calling himself a jelly donut back when he made his speech.  The meaning was clear. I think, after really looking into it (and honestly I really paid little attention to it before) it was a figurative play on words. Like I said, people play around with language all the time, which is why languages change with time.

The number of American/English words in German today is appalling. Hi, sorry, Airport- now part of the German lexicon? They are, but there is no way I’m using those words. Sometimes languages have to change due to new technology (the internet age is the big reason for this now), but sometimes they change for unknown reasons (my old German professor would be turning over in his grave if he heard “hi”, “sorry” or “Airport” pawned off as German words today). He didn’t even like the word “Charterflug”, charter-flight back in the late 70s and told us to say “Pachtflug” instead. (That’s HIS word, not a real German word to my knowledge. I think I told someone that once in German and they laughed....But, he wasn’t too far off in inventing a new word since “Pachten” is the German noun for leasing and “pachten” is the verb to lease, rent out. And, of course “Flug” is flight).

I will say this thread taught me a lot because I heard the old joke, which originated in the early 80s, among teachers and students of German at Universities, that JFK made a fool of himself saying “Ich bin ein Berliner”, and named himself a Berliner (the donut in the picture). I never believed the people understood this as such, of course. I assumed they just assumed it was his Americanized German is all. I never understood why he said this, with all his advisors and translators around, but I just ignored it. To me it just wasn’t important.

Like someone coming to New York and saying, “I am New Yorker.” Not a big deal, so I pretty much forgot about it and I really don’t care if non-natives make mistakes like that.