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Author Topic: THE when should it be pronounced THEE and not THUH  (Read 694 times)

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THE when should it be pronounced THEE and not THUH
« on: January 18, 2019, 01:12:50 pm »
Since I am not on Italki anymore I missed that discussion.
I never studied English grammar and know no rules, I noticed however that I say THEE United States.
How’s the rule?
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Re: THE when should it be pronounced THEE and not THUH
« Reply #1 on: January 18, 2019, 01:47:24 pm »
I don't think there is a rule, not even an informal one.  Off the top of my head I can't think of a regional accent that would claim a rule, nor an immigrant group that would struggle over it.  I can't remember being corrected on my usage of either.  I never think about it but I know I use both.

It has to be whatever is easiest for your mouth to pronounce in the particular sentence, as the word is everywhere.  English did win the lottery in the "easiest definite article" category.  Certainly not like Italian (shudder).
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Re: THE when should it be pronounced THEE and not THUH
« Reply #2 on: January 18, 2019, 04:15:44 pm »
Sofia, the rule is: "thuh" + consonant, but "thee" + vowel, resp. vowel sound, e.g. "thee" before "honesty", as the "h" has to be dropped, but "thuh" one (because although the word "one" technically starts with a vowel, it doesn't start with a vowel sound).
Apart from that, "thee" may also be used for emphasis, for example if somebody says "Johnny Depp was at our hotel last week" and you respond with "What? You mean, THEE Johnny Depp?"
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Re: THE when should it be pronounced THEE and not THUH
« Reply #3 on: January 18, 2019, 07:07:50 pm »
Sofia, the rule is: "thuh" + consonant, but "thee" + vowel, resp. vowel sound, e.g. "thee" before "honesty", as the "h" has to be dropped, but "thuh" one (because although the word "one" technically starts with a vowel, it doesn't start with a vowel sound).
Apart from that, "thee" may also be used for emphasis, for example if somebody says "Johnny Depp was at our hotel last week" and you respond with "What? You mean, THEE Johnny Depp?"

Yes, the „the“ does have the pronunciation differences Alharacas described. I learned that myself only a few weeks ago in the videos I watched. I was unaware of the distinction until then, but always used it.

Native speakers aren’t taught or corrected on the pronunciation of their own language (we should be so we would then know how we are pronouncing words, and it´s a super-simple rule). But, we just distinguish these things based on what sounds right.
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Re: THE when should it be pronounced THEE and not THUH
« Reply #4 on: January 18, 2019, 08:50:07 pm »
I don't think there is a rule, not even an informal one.  Off the top of my head I can't think of a regional accent that would claim a rule, nor an immigrant group that would struggle over it.  I can't remember being corrected on my usage of either.  I never think about it but I know I use both.

It has to be whatever is easiest for your mouth to pronounce in the particular sentence, as the word is everywhere.  English did win the lottery in the "easiest definite article" category.  Certainly not like Italian (shudder).

I agree that English wins the lottery in the easiest definite article category because there`s no grammatical gender to nouns. But, that´s just the tip of the iceberg. Languages are more than just definite articles or even grammar. So, I don’t say English is an „easy“ language to learn. I used to hear that all the time and also about Spanish, being, ah so easy. No they`re not. No language is easy to learn and it´s a mild put-down, I always thought, to tell a native speaker that their language is „easy“ to learn. It´s a bit like telling them they are dim-witted because all they can speak is  this „easy“ language. Of course it`s untrue. Equally untrue is the illusion people create for themselves when they, as native speakers of a language, are told their language is „one of the most difficult in the world.“ It puffs up the native speaker and falsely makes him or her think they are brilliant by mastering their own native language. It´s all nonsense.
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Re: THE when should it be pronounced THEE and not THUH
« Reply #5 on: January 19, 2019, 02:49:30 am »
Alharacas is it really a published "rule"?  I know it is certainly entirely unconscious in my speaking and I cannot remember it being taught in school.

Steve I disagree with what you said - native speakers are indeed taught pronunciation and grammar.  I remember struggling through the mire of it in Jr High School.  I also think that once you reach school age there is a lot of peer pressure to conform to speaking like everyone else.  That is where regional accents come from.

I think we ought to hire schoolchildren in our target language to follow us around and make fun of our speaking mistakes.  That is the only way to have a language program that truly meets the advertising - "Learn your target language intuitively, just like a child does"!
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Re: THE when should it be pronounced THEE and not THUH
« Reply #6 on: January 19, 2019, 04:07:42 am »
Alharacas is it really a published "rule"?  I know it is certainly entirely unconscious in my speaking and I cannot remember it being taught in school.

Steve I disagree with what you said - native speakers are indeed taught pronunciation and grammar.  I remember struggling through the mire of it in Jr High School.  I also think that once you reach school age there is a lot of peer pressure to conform to speaking like everyone else.  That is where regional accents come from.

I think we ought to hire schoolchildren in our target language to follow us around and make fun of our speaking mistakes.  That is the only way to have a language program that truly meets the advertising - "Learn your target language intuitively, just like a child does"!

Yeah, we all had to take English classes in Jr. and Sr. High School, but did anyone really pay attention to grammar? I didn`t. And pronunciation was never taught to us. They may have had special classes for people with speech impediments, but that wasn`t a standard part of the curriculum. All I remember about even high school English class was being bored in it, as was everyone else. In my mom`s day, they actually did diagram sentences, and learn subjects and object, but not where and when I went to school, which were all in public schools.

I think teaching theories change over the years, and in the 1970s there might have been a liberalizing trend, at least in California, to get away from teaching grammar (the idea of teaching pronunciation outside a English as a Second Language Class sounds totally foreign to me. Why would you need to do that?) and use different approaches.

I can`t even remember what English class was all about in those days. It was about as useful as PE.
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Re: THE when should it be pronounced THEE and not THUH
« Reply #7 on: January 19, 2019, 05:38:25 am »
I remember from Jr High:
1.  I hated grammar
2.  I hated the kids who liked grammar

I remember diagramming sentences.  I even challenged the teacher on it "Why are we learning this stuff?"  "No one makes sentences like this".  Of course that didn't go over well.

Now speech class I liked.  The Speech teacher would come to class every year and take us one by one into the hall and have us say a series of tounge twisters.  She was listening for stutters, speech impediments and lisps.  I had a lisp in first grade, said th instead of s sometimes.  So a couple of times a week we would leave regular class and go play speech games with the cute speech teacher.  She also gave us candy.

I was cured pretty quick, but soon learned how to talk with a lisp whenever she was around.  I was able to keep up that con well into 3rd grade.
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Re: THE when should it be pronounced THEE and not THUH
« Reply #8 on: January 19, 2019, 08:47:31 am »
Alharacas is it really a published "rule"?  I know it is certainly entirely unconscious in my speaking and I cannot remember it being taught in school.

I can't really prove it right now, but yes, I seem to remember it was mentioned in one of the Cambridge books I had to use in class. Plus, if I hadn't had to teach it, I don't think I'd have been able to come up with the rule at the drop of a hat. I'm not surprised you can't remember being taught about this in school, though. As you said, you use whatever's easiest on the tongue. It's just that this fits nicely into a rule (for once). ;)

I think we ought to hire schoolchildren in our target language to follow us around and make fun of our speaking mistakes.  That is the only way to have a language program that truly meets the advertising - "Learn your target language intuitively, just like a child does"!
Be careful what you wish for. This may be exactly what you're going to get once you've retired to that Italian village of your dreams. :)
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Re: THE when should it be pronounced THEE and not THUH
« Reply #9 on: January 19, 2019, 09:28:25 am »

I can't really prove it right now, but yes, I seem to remember it was mentioned in one of the Cambridge books I had to use in class. Plus, if I hadn't had to teach it, I don't think I'd have been able to come up with the rule at the drop of a hat. I'm not surprised you can't remember being taught about this in school, though. As you said, you use whatever's easiest on the tongue. It's just that this fits nicely into a rule (for once). ;)


Further question: is it wrong to say thuh onion, thuh elevator?
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Re: THE when should it be pronounced THEE and not THUH
« Reply #10 on: January 19, 2019, 10:28:57 am »
Further question: is it wrong to say thuh onion, thuh elevator?

No, it isn't. However, you'd have to introduce a glottal stop* between the article and the vowel, otherwise you'd end up saying "thonion" and "thelevator", and that, I think, really would hinder understanding.

*a glottal stop is that kind of slight gagging (where your throat closes up for a moment) which occurs at the beginning of ejecting a very short (surprised?) "uh", or try to pronounce an exaggerated "g"

This is from the Oxford dictionaries:
The API forum is now closed.
forum.oxforddictionaries.com

Note how he says "it's not impossible", implying it's not really common.
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Re: THE when should it be pronounced THEE and not THUH
« Reply #11 on: January 19, 2019, 05:09:56 pm »
I really did sort of glaze over in school when the teacher would bring up a "rule" in English.  In English every spelling and grammar rule has so many exceptions that I felt it useless to memorize the rules.

Alharacas
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Thanks ever so much for deflating my romantic dreams of an idyllic Italian retirement.  Why can't you be a stereotypical German and remain reticent?

@Sofia
The children wont be mean to me will they?

No matter.  I will just do the same thing I did when the kids made fun of me in grammar school.  Sell them candy at a discount.
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Re: THE when should it be pronounced THEE and not THUH
« Reply #12 on: January 19, 2019, 05:13:43 pm »
And what Alharacas said does make sense, you either change the pronunciation, make a glottal stop, or run the words together.  I have heard all three.

Or you can get all New York in your accent and change "th" to a D sound.  Dat werks too
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Re: THE when should it be pronounced THEE and not THUH
« Reply #13 on: January 19, 2019, 09:08:20 pm »
@Sofia

You can say „thuh elevator“ or „thuh onion“ and I`m sure many people do, but you would have to use the glottal stop to avoid running the words together. I`ve frankly never heard anyone run the words together without the stop. I doubt anyone even knows how many people say „thee onion/elevator“ vs „thuh onion/elevator“ and I`m quite sure few Americans even know or hear the difference, it´s that subtle.

This is one of those things native speakers are never taught (except for maybe in speech therapy class). Native speakers are not taught pronunciation. In fact, they know it before they even get to school. Only when they get to school and speech impediments are noticed (like a lisp) are they taught to overcome it.

I have no idea when I say „thee onion“ vs. „thuh onion“ and in my entire life have never even thought about it until now. I doubt it`s a hard and fast rule of any sort.

@Neal

If you had the lisp as a little kid, which is common, then you would have, and should have, been taken aside and given speech therapy classes for that. I don`t know what the percentage is of children with this problem is, but it`s certainly not uncommon. I never had any speech impediments as a child, but I know of a few kids who did. My cousin, who was my age, had a speech problem of some kind (I`ve forgotten exactly now what it was), and I think it was probably the lisp as you mentioned, but after speech therapy in school, he got over it too. I wonder if that´s the only sound the few kids with speech impediments have in English, the lisp. With Castellon Spanish or Icelandic, since at least Icelandic has the TH sound in just about every word and sometimes it appears multiple times in one word, I have to wonder if their children have this same problem.

The only thing I recall is my mom constantly correcting my younger sister to not say „It happened on accident“ and instead to say, „it happened BY accident.“ I assume my sister just picked the „on accident“ up off the street. A lot to do over one lousy preposition.

I never had pronunciation or language problems of any kind, for some reason, at school. Languages just came to me easily (even the dreaded high school Spanish).

So as to English grammar, sure it was taught it and the „rules“ were quickly forgotten once the class was over. I was never taught pronunciation. Like Noam Chomsky says, „If someone has to teach you the grammar of your own language, the odds are pretty good that what you are being taught is false. Otherwise you wouldn`t have to be taught it. No one teaches you your own language, any more than they teach you how to see. It´s something that just grows in your head....children already speak their own language before they even get to school.“
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Re: THE when should it be pronounced THEE and not THUH
« Reply #14 on: January 19, 2019, 10:28:33 pm »


*a glottal stop is that kind of slight gagging (where your throat closes up for a moment) which occurs at the beginning of ejecting a very short (surprised?) "uh", or try to pronounce an exaggerated "g"


Thank you Alharacas for the substantial information!

By the way, I never heard about glottal stops until I started learning Arabic. I found out they exist in all the languages but in Arabic they are written.

en.m.wikipedia.org


How does that work in Farsi? Do they also have the hamza sign ?
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