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Author Topic: "Try to do" or "try doing"?  (Read 2074 times)

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Truman Overby

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Re: "Try to do" or "try doing"?
« Reply #30 on: March 26, 2019, 07:42:02 pm »
Thank you Chizuko for the upvote. Neal and Jerry never give me these (not too many other people do either, so yours might the first) ;D
I'm pretty sure I gave you one, once.
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Re: "Try to do" or "try doing"?
« Reply #31 on: March 26, 2019, 08:12:21 pm »
There, I upped Jerry's vote.  Steve, up yours too.
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Re: "Try to do" or "try doing"?
« Reply #32 on: March 26, 2019, 11:01:03 pm »
Steve, let me address some issues because I feel like we're stuck in a loop here.

1. The video. I don't know if you read any of the comments in this thread but a lot of time and effort went into analysing the video, pointing out what was wrong with it and establishing what it really should have been about. No one who has read these comments would feel the need to stress that it's not the most helpful resource in the world. If I hadn't found it questionable, I wouldn't have posted it in the first place.
Neal was the first one to confirm that there were times when the "try to" and "try doing" sentences were interchangeable. He also felt that the teacher was deliberately choosing a limited range of examples to make her argument stronger. Did you read his comment? SuKi explained that in some contexts there was no real difference, while in others, one was more preferable than other. We discussed this at length and looked at different examples. If you have anything to say about the examples we used, please do so because I'm always interested to know whether the things I've learnt sound natural in other English-speaking countries as well as in the UK.

2. What learners should or shouldn't learn. This is very individual, and, as I expressed in my comment yesterday, not something one person should decide for everyone. Some people are genuinely interested in taking exams, quite many actually. Some people want to be able to read and write academic papers, existentialist novels, poems, what have you. And, of course, some just want to be able to communicate but there are no universal resources that would work for everyone, nor can you expect every single teacher to create those. A good teacher teaches students what's relevant to them and not what's relevant to "the majority who aim low".

3. About colloquial language. I am glad that we're embracing colloquial language here. I teach my students both standard and common Czech (if they say they want it this way) because using the wrong style at the wrong time can have all sorts of negative consequences. However, if you're using your target language and you overdo it (your language is "too colloquial"), you make yourself sound totally ridiculous. Remember all the "gonna" and "wanna" posts on italki? I don't think that plain, textbook-like black-and-white English could ever be source of this much embarrassment. Not everything you say, as a native speaker, will sound the same if I say it.
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Re: "Try to do" or "try doing"?
« Reply #33 on: March 27, 2019, 01:25:12 am »
Steve, what is with all the numbers, are you practicing your dance steps?
Slow, slow, quick quick...
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Re: "Try to do" or "try doing"?
« Reply #34 on: March 27, 2019, 01:55:57 am »
No Neal. Sorry about all that. There`s no way I know how to delete mistaken posts. The modify button disappeared on all my posts and I wanted to get rid of one by just deleting the content that got mistakenly posted. But, if you delete the content of a post, it won`t let you re-post anything without some numeral or something in there. I`m having the strangest trouble with my iPad. Maybe I should pull an Alex Jones and adopt a conspiracy theory, like the California State Bar infected my iPad with a strange „political correctness virus“ after I had to answer all those strange demographic questions to renew my membership?  Like that one about the gender, with those 5 or 6 choices? I expected 3-  female, male, and then trans. Okay, no problem. Then I got these alternatives like „2-X“, „Undefined/non-Conformist/Non-Binary“ , and then that „other....please specify“ category?  I had a good laugh at work today with an attorney friend of mine about this. He renewed early and didn`t have to take this survey. He couldn`t believe it either, like the whole State has gone off the deep end. He said, „$500 a year and that´s where our money goes, to pay people to write up stuff like that?“ How can you be „gender non-conformist?“ I guess that´s like formally objecting to your gender? I don`t get it ???
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Re: "Try to do" or "try doing"?
« Reply #35 on: March 27, 2019, 02:17:18 am »
Nikola,

Like I told Neal, sorry for all these weird computer problems I`ve been having. I think we are time-limited in modifying posts where you can only modify them for so long after they are posted.

Anyway, I think your question was a good one, and all the advice you got was great. You can`t beat Suki`s advice, especially about BrEnglish, and everyone else`s was good too.

You mentioned teaching Czech. I don`t know if you have a language authority like Duden in Czech, but if you do I`m sure it helps. I haven`t looked at any of the English grammar books or dictionaries so I don`t know what`s out there. But, it is nice having one authority to go to that tells you how each word or verb is categorized, like official (governmental sounding), elevated, standard, colloquial, salopp (causal I guess) or teenager language.  Not disagreeing with anyone`s advice, I think the middle road is the best for me (either standard, colloquial or salopp). Teaching the standard and colloquial side-by-side sounds like a good approach, with everyone deciding what his or her needs are in the language.
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Re: "Try to do" or "try doing"?
« Reply #36 on: March 27, 2019, 10:46:12 am »
You mentioned teaching Czech. I don`t know if you have a language authority like Duden in Czech, but if you do I`m sure it helps. I haven`t looked at any of the English grammar books or dictionaries so I don`t know what`s out there.
Yes, we do have exactly one authority that is in charge of all this:
It's very helpful because in Czech, so much can go wrong (not saying Czech is harder than other languages, it's just... I'd say peculiar), few people know how to use it correctly and the majority of people know where to find the answer if they care enough to do so. This is obviously a lot easier in a country of 10 million than it would be for all the countries scattered around the world that speak English and use it their way.

Here's one of many lists of English grammar resources if you feel like looking into it:
English is already the most common second language (by number of speakers) in the world, and more people begin studying it every day. Fortunately, the…
10 Best Grammar Resources for English Language Learners | Grammarly Blog · grammarly.com
There are both British and American resources there. I tend to use the Cambridge Dictionary a lot
Cambridge Dictionary - English dictionary, English-Spanish translation and British & American English audio pronunciation from Cambridge University Press
dictionary.cambridge.org
It's not just British English. You can try typing in any "American" expression and it will probably know it and tell you whether it's formal, informal, offensive etc.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2019, 11:05:56 am by Nikola »
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Re: "Try to do" or "try doing"?
« Reply #37 on: March 27, 2019, 07:29:40 pm »
You mentioned teaching Czech. I don`t know if you have a language authority like Duden in Czech, but if you do I`m sure it helps. I haven`t looked at any of the English grammar books or dictionaries so I don`t know what`s out there.
Yes, we do have exactly one authority that is in charge of all this:
It's very helpful because in Czech, so much can go wrong (not saying Czech is harder than other languages, it's just... I'd say peculiar), few people know how to use it correctly and the majority of people know where to find the answer if they care enough to do so. This is obviously a lot easier in a country of 10 million than it would be for all the countries scattered around the world that speak English and use it their way.

Here's one of many lists of English grammar resources if you feel like looking into it:
English is already the most common second language (by number of speakers) in the world, and more people begin studying it every day. Fortunately, the…
10 Best Grammar Resources for English Language Learners | Grammarly Blog · grammarly.com
There are both British and American resources there. I tend to use the Cambridge Dictionary a lot
Cambridge Dictionary - English dictionary, English-Spanish translation and British & American English audio pronunciation from Cambridge University Press
dictionary.cambridge.org
It's not just British English. You can try typing in any "American" expression and it will probably know it and tell you whether it's formal, informal, offensive etc.

Yes, Nikola, good students of a language look to all resources to see what other opinions are, seek advice from native speakers, are open to criticism or correction and don`t take it personally, and just keep going. If they are seeking to improve, they will improve. I am always willing to change my mind if pursuaded I`m wrong. Sometimes it takes a little digging to be sure I`m wrong, but if wrong, I`ll learn from it and move on.

I`ve found at least with German, you are pretty safe if you use words that are not tagged (meaning they are standard) by Duden, but that you can be reasonably safe in using either standard language or going down a bit to colloquiums or even causal (some call sloppy) speech. It´s dangerous to try to go up, so I personally avoid words marked „geh“ for gehoben, elevated speech, or „Amtsspr“ for official language without first checking with a native speaker. It´s risky to to that. You can`t get into trouble going a bit colloquial, since I`ve noticed the frequency of word use is high in these categories. But with elevated speech you need to be doubly sure it´s a word people will use. Also anything marked „veraltend“, dated, you can pretty much forget about. The words or verbs aren`t used or not known by many (except older generations). And veraltet is just dead altogether. It’s worse than veraltend. So yes, I think shooting for the middle range speech is safest and knowing the difference is very helpful. And even Duden is not always spot on. I`ve found words Duden has pegged as „geh“ and asked native speakers about it and they´ve said they never even heard the word before. Same for words labeled „veraltend“. Or people might say they´ve heard it only rarely but no one uses it.
ROT MACHT STARK! Nur tote Fische schwimmen mit dem Strom.  http://www.dielinke-aurich.de/