Even Greener Pastures

Interesting question, Nikola.

Hum. Not being a teacher, I can’t really say how learners approach this. I think a good rule of thumb is just to reorganize a thought, or an expression, that you know to be correct, until you encounter an alternative, which may or may not be similar to one used in your own language,  and never to assume anything along the lines of similarities,  until you are 100% sure.  Assume nothing. I guess that has always been my approach.  Actually, because English is such a dominating /domineering language on the world front, it sort of makes sense that other languages would adopt expressions and idioms from English, that are either very similar or direct translations, into their own language and be okay with them. But, it’s all up to the natives to do that.

But, I think I know what you are talking about.

Since you speak German, you can relate to this.

If you want to say in German, “that makes no sense”, the technically correct translation is “Das ergibt keinen Sinn.” But, we all know people do say, and have been saying for years, “Das macht keinen Sinn”, just like English.

But, I read fairly recently, where someone wrote, that “das macht keinen Sinn” was bad German and should be avoided, because it’s just another example of German “word-aping”, as my former Professor used to say. It’s not real German.It’s too much like English.

But, I’ve heard highly respected native speakers, like Helmut Schmidt, in interviews say this: “das macht keinen Sinn”, so I will use it since I know it is okay. But, then I frequently lean toward “ergibt” instead of “macht” in that sentence, only because I like to use different words for the same thing, or expressions sometimes, because other people do. I can’t say I’ve ever experienced a “that can’t be right” feeling about it, but it does seem a bit like cheating almost to me. But, I do think I understand what you are getting at.

Unfortunately, I never remember to make a note when it happens, that's why I can't give you any examples. But yes, every once in a while, there are bits of Polish which make me think "That's exactly like German!", followed by "I'd never have dared to say it like that".

Thanks everyone. Yes, SHL, I think you understand what I mean. It does feel like cheating. I wonder if native speakers of German ever think twice before putting a verb at the end of an English sentence, wondering "am I doing this because it's correct or because I'm German?"

Can't speak for anybody else, but I don't, not about verb placement. Prepositions are a different matter altogether. The older I get, the more I find myself doubting my instincts - and rightly so. Sigh.

I find the story about the Ukrainian/Russian speaker needing to check about different word endings for different gender peculiar to say the least, especially as she wasn't just checking if that was the case, she didn't know why it was so.

Er... no. Not peculiar in the least. You try asking any Polish speaker who's never wasted a thought on his native language why the endings change when you switch from saying "Lubię białe wino" (I like white wine, accusative) to "Nie lubię czerwonego wina" (I don't like red wine, genitive), and in all likelihood they're going to look at you as if you'd asked them why some wines were red while others were white, why people die, or why dogs bark. (I know. I've tried. And one of those I asked had a degree in German philology.)
Failing that, ask any ordinary German why it's "der gute Schnaps" but "ein guter Schnaps" and watch them flounder and drown in the intricacies of a bit of grammar they use every day.

Alharacas, I think we'd have to get someone like Irena or Pasha to tell us just how surprising it would be for a speaker of Russian/Ukrainian to encounter what Martin describes:

Once I answered a question on It...i questions section. The question was about Croatian (which I don't speak, but understand simple sentences) and the person who asked was Ukrainian (if I remember it well) declaring herself as being native in two Slavic languages (the 2nd one was Russian obviously). The question was in English. She wondered why the 3rd person past tense ("was") is sometimes "bio" and sometimes "bila". The answer was that the past tense has separate male and female forms in Slavic languages. But she probably tried to think "too English"  to notice that.

We're talking about verbs in different Slavic languages and the fact that the past tense reflects the gender. As far as I'm aware, this is how it works in other Slavic languages the student speaks. Now, I know that people's ability to reflect on their own language can be quite limited, but this should, as far as the level of difficulty is concerned, be nothing like explaining the declension of adjectives to a non-native speaker. Also, there is no reason why case endings are the way they are. You can't really explain why. But you can explain why the same verb in the past tense has multiple endings - because it reflects multiple genders.

No, no, Nikola, I understood perfectly well. My Polish is sufficient by now to know that this Ukranian woman's question was on a par with asking why it's sometimes "był/o" and sometimes "była" in Polish.
And my question about liking/not liking something referred to the reasons for changing the case. The answer I would have needed, but which none of the native speakers was able to provide - remember, this was just after I'd started learning Polish! - was "In a positive sentence, you use the accusative, but if it's a negative sentence, you need to use the genitive".
I'm sure you'll admit that was a pretty reasonable question, given that German has nothing like it. 

This isn't quite what you were asking about, but in my Czech, I get more interference from Russian (which I learned as an adult) than from Serbian (my native language). A lot more. Both with grammar (e.g. case endings) and with vocabulary (so, I'll use a Russian word, only to realize that, oops, wrong language  ).

That's funny because I find Slovenian most difficult to understand among Slavic languages. But I wouldn't be surprised seeing this case changing.
On the other hand I never tried to find out why some languages have it while the other not. The same with different gender endings in the past tense or with double negation in Slavic and Romance versus Germanic languages. We don't have to understand the phenomenon to know it exists 

Thanks everyone. Yes, SHL, I think you understand what I mean. It does feel like cheating. I wonder if native speakers of German ever think twice before putting a verb at the end of an English sentence, wondering "am I doing this because it's correct or because I'm German?"

I find the story about the Ukrainian/Russian speaker needing to check about different word endings for different gender peculiar to say the least, especially as she wasn't just checking if that was the case, she didn't know why it was so.

I’ve not seen any Germans incorrectly put a verb at the end of a sentence in English. For some reason they just don’t seem to have a problem it. Americans very much have a problem with not putting a German verb at the end of a sentence where it belongs, which drives me crazy. It makes me want to say, “No you dummy. That verb belongs at the end of the sentence! Your speaking Denglish.”

Pronunciation problems. Germans sometimes have problems with the v and the w, where they make a V sound like a W and mixed them up occasionally. The growling American R sound (so I’ve been told it’s growling) presents a small problem because the R sounds are different between the languages, and there are others too. Of course there’s the classic error in German in not using the English present progressive (because it doesn’t exist in German), like “I am living in the US for 5 years.” That one is more common than you’d think.

I like this video of a really cute German kid in Germany’s Got Talent singing Elvis Presley’s famous, “I can’t help falling in love with you.” His pronunciation is all around very good, I think, and you can only hear a slight accent. Just small stuff. Like notice how he makes a mistake with the lyrics “..would it be a sin” and and sounds like “vould it be a sin?” But, sometimes he gets the W sound right. The classic problem with the TH is usually not a problem with just a little instruction. That TH sound is really common in many other languages. Icelandic has a TH sound in just about every sentence.

 It’s a minor point, and no one would care. Probably because the kid has such an angelic voice.