Even Greener Pastures

"So, please give me an honest answer, Alharacas. Do you think I could apply for jobs advertised for German speakers now? Would I survive a job interview in German?"
I consider the question carefully and reply, "It would depend on the job. If you were trying to sell me really expensive equipment or software, and for some reason we couldn't switch to English, perhaps because I didn't speak it that well myself, I'd demand flawless German. But for an in-house job? Of course! Your German's fine. We talk about a really wide range of subjects, you and I, and you understand me when I speak at normal speed. I don't have to dumb down my German, either. So, yes, by all means. Go for it."

Fast forward to our next conversation several weeks later. My language partner is visibly furious. "It turns out you need to speak German at a C2 level if you want to get hired by a German company where not everybody speaks English."
I burst out laughing. "Then they won't be able to fill any vacancies, ever. There simply aren't very many native speakers who speak German at C2 level, you know."
He gives me a strained smile. "I was talking to a head hunter today. The interview was in German. At the end, he said to me 'Well, you know, they're looking for people who speak German. I'm sorry, but you don't qualify.' So, I asked the guy at which level I'd have to speak German in order to qualify. C1? C2? He thought about it a little and said 'B2, I guess.' I said 'But that is my German level.' And then he just shrugged." My language partner draws breath. "Apparently, Germans recognize that English is spoken at various levels. And a B2 is fine for a job requiring no German at all. But for German, it's binary. You either speak it - or you don't."

I tell the story to a friend who works at a company where they speak only English at work, simply because it's the only language everybody understands. My friend says "Better tell him not to try again. Not before his German's a lot better, anyway. He wouldn't get the salary he's accustomed to, either. The people doing the hiring tend to see a correlation between fluency and qualifications."
I stare at him. "Are you seriously telling me he'd be seen as less qualified because his German isn't perfect? Even though people in his field are in such high demand, and he's fluent in several other languages, apart from English and his native language?"
He shrugs. "Yes. That's what it's like."

If you've managed to read this far - what is it like in your country? At which level would somebody have to speak your native language in order to get hired for a job other than cleaning or picking fruit? Are people automatically considered to be less qualified, perhaps even less intelligent if they aren't fluent in your native language?

Edit: I'd also be happy to hear about this from a language learner's perspective. What do people say to you when they hear you're learning their language? Are they encouraging? Helpful? Pessimistic? Surprised?

First of all, I was relieved to see that this was not about the binary/non-binary sex orientation debate.

As to the topic at hand,  I'll never work in Georgia  {საქართველო, sakartvelo} so I don't know what level of Georgian language {ქართული ენა, kartuli ena} one would need in order to secure employment. From what I know though, native English speakers are practically worshiped in Georgia. Which probably accounts for my interest in the people.

Georgians are flabbergasted and amused and maybe slightly delighted that anyone would bother to learn their language. It's inconceivable to them that anyone, except a Georgian, would have any desire to learn their language. Let alone actually make an effort to learn it.

I'm a sucker for the offbeat, odd, and useless, so it's perfect for me.

French or Arabic?

I think in the US the bar is set pretty low for hiring. If people understand what you are talking about, I don‘t think people pay much attention to accents, grammatical expressions/oddities, even if a native speakers would never use a particular expression his/herself.   For the most part I think this is likely due to most Americans not being aware of proper English grammar anyway, because they never learned it and/or never think about it or care.

I listened to a YouTube clips in German involving the Germanwings flight from 2015 where the co-pilot flew into plane into the ground in France killing everyone. He was suicidal and it was never detected. The documentary spoke about his background and training and I could overhear a native German speaker, a Lufthansa employee, speaking English (for some reason) in the back behind with overdubbed German (not sure why this was but the documentary was in German). Although the speaker‘s English was good and would never present a problem in hiring him for probably any job, his words were clearly not always native-sounding. He was speaking of the pilot screening before they start training and how they have to undergo physical and psychological exams and English language exams before even being considered for training. The speaker, though his English was fine, used a phrase no native would use. He said, with an accent, „We want to see if you fit into the Lufthansa world.“ It‘s an intelligible sentence, and no one would say anything about it, but I would re-phrase it as „we want to see if you are a good fit for Lufthansa“ for „for the company“. No one would say „the Lufthansa world.“ That’s a phrase I’ve never heard before or anything like it. What‘s a „Lufthansa world?“ I can‘t really say it‘s wrong but just sounds weird.

The suicidal pilot‘s English language medical record was surely written by a non-native, because the English, though good, just didn‘t sound native —In it, the author writes:  „ In the case of Mr. Lubitz modified living conditions caused the onset of a depressive Episode „.  (I imagine the author was referring to a move to Phoenix  but the sentence is fine.) But then the next sentences: „By a drug therapy (sic) and a psychotherapeutic treatment (sic), which enabled him to develop sufficient resources for getting on with similar situations in the future (sic)..“ was clearly odd. To improve the sentence I would say „ By drug and psychotherapeutic treatment (the „a“ in „a drug therapy“ and „a psychotherapeutic treatment“ are redundant and should be left out), and the phrase „ develop sufficient resources for getting on with similar situations in the future“ is just weird sounding and awkward. It‘s grammatically incorrect. I have never heard the phrase, „develop resources for getting on“ before, but American employers wouldn’t care or downgrade it because it‘s intelligible. A better sentence would have been, „allow Mr. Lubitz to deal with (or handle) similar situations in the future.“ The phrase „get on with a situation“ is just a foreign phrase, and I‘m not sure what the writer’s native language was.

So again, I‘d say in the US, in the job market, employers are more concerned about just being able communicate and understand an employee rather than the person speaking at a C2 level unless the job involves teaching English.

I did want to add that it, of course, matters, what sort of work you are applying for. Airline pilots need to learn airport tower communication language, which of course would cause native speakers trouble anyway, so that‘s a very specialized type communications. I have no idea what general English an average non-English speaking speaking pilot needs to master beyond specialized tower communication skills. Beyond that, it might be a fairly rudimentary level.

Like Alharacas said, it really should be job-dependent. If it‘s just picking fruit in the field you hardly need any language skills for that. If it‘s high-tech office work, I can see that requiring some reasonably high level but I wouldn‘t think perfection would be demanded.

If the job requires high level skills, I can understand that, like teaching.

We especially have a problem with companies farming out telephone customer service jobs to foreign countries (for credit card companies, telecommunication companies) and one would think that the skill levels would have to be high, but they are not. You might try calling one of the 24-hour customer service lines and, after hours, you are likely to be talking with someone in India or the Philippines, and it‘s often pretty hard to understand these folks. So there they should use people with c2 level skills but they‘d be hard pressed to find them.

Airline pilots need to learn airport tower communication language, which of course would cause native speakers trouble anyway, so that‘s a very specialized type communications.

Sorry, have to post this.

Quote from: SHL on April 16, 2019, 05:16:09 pm

Quote from: Keep America Great! on April 16, 2019, 05:06:03 pm

Quote from: SHL on April 16, 2019, 04:52:39 pm

So again, I‘d say in the US, in the job market, employers are more concerned about just being able communicate and understand an employee rather than the person speaking at a C2 level unless the job involves teaching English.

Yeah, you'll find lots of lawyers who are very deficient in English grammar. 

I‘ve noticed it more with doctors than lawyers.

I've never met a doctor yet who didn't hate lawyers and vice versa. It all stems from the malpractice lawsuits.

Self-employed doctors maybe. But, those part of an HMO like Kaiser couldn‘t care less. It‘s all covered by the company and they have mandatory arbitration clauses so the cases never see a courtroom or a jury.

Plus, it‘s extremely expensive and difficult to sue a doctor in California since MICRA in 1975, with its pain and suffering cap at $250,000. It‘s a total myth in CA anyway that doctors are worried about this because there are so few suits. Do have have ANY idea how hard it is to even find a lawyer to take a med mal case? Who‘s got $5,000 or more to invest just to determine if they even have a case a lawyer with accept? Not that many.

And that was the „case screening“ cost 20 years ago. I can‘t imagine what it would be now.

I don‘t especially like or dislike doctors. They are people just like everyone else, with all the same personal and family problems.

Some are really sociopaths or even psychopaths but most are okay.

They are actually a little bit on the dumb side outside of medicine, and especially with it comes to legal matter.

Okay, Steve, thanks for clearing that up. So good of you to not degrade them with opinions about their mental health. 

I don‘t especially like or dislike doctors. They are people just like everyone else, with all the same personal and family problems.

Some are really sociopaths or even psychopaths but most are okay.

They are actually a little bit on the dumb side outside of medicine, and especially with it comes to legal matter.

Let me rephrase that for you, Steven, shall I?
"I don‘t especially like or dislike doctors/bricklayers/cleaners/lawyers. They are people just like everyone else, with all the same personal and family problems.

Some are really sociopaths or even psychopaths but most are okay.

They are actually a little bit on the dumb side outside of medicine/bricklaying/cleaning/law, and especially when it comes to [insert topic of choice, e.g. stamp collecting, piano playing, archeology].

@Neal
I'm not crazy about them but I do like the good old Ben-Hur.
Was your question completely random or am I missing something?

Ah, of course! It's been a while since I saw the movie. Brilliant.