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Author Topic: Freedom and liberty, rights and law  (Read 773 times)

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Freedom and liberty, rights and law
« on: June 02, 2019, 07:48:52 pm »
You know that I usually avoid political discussions. It's maybe because I don't feel competent enough to talk about the politics of my country, and especially about the other countries I don't live in.
But today is a different day. I've just finished to watch a debate on TV. The debate was held at the European Center of Solidarity in Gdańsk (the institution which commemorates the Polish 'Solidarity' and its part in the fall of communism here) and the occasion on which it was organised today is 30th anniversary of first partially-free elections in Poland in 1989 (partially-free because 65% of places in the parliament were guaranteed to the communist party and only 35% were to be chosen freely during the elections). The debate was interesting not only from the historical point of view but also because of some linguistic problems. One of the participants was a professor of history from the Oxford University (I don't remember his name), and a few comments were about the meaning people understand under the phrases like 'freedom as a human right'.
In Polish we have the word 'wolność' which may be translated as 'freedom' or 'liberty'. People have "prawo" to be free and the word 'prawo' means 'right' but also 'law'. People have rights to fight for their freedom, but what should they do when they get it - fight to defend THEIR rights or elaborate the compromise which gives maximal possible liberty to biggest possible group of people with the respect to freedom of the others. The English historian defined 'liberty' like something every person has rights to, and freedom as something connected to the state of group of people or the whole society. Another participant - Polish professor of Law - pointed to this unfortunate meaning of 'prawo'. She said that freedom should be a human right, but people see it as something given them (or not) by the law. Some politicians think that getting the highest rate in the FREE elections give them the RIGHT to change the LAW according to their views ignoring completely the others (and their LIBERTY).
What is interesting not all the parts of the political scene equally enthusiastically celebrate this anniversary. There are groups which say that some groups made a treaty with the communist and thus deceived the ideals of the 'Solidarity' movement, and that there is nothing to celebrate today.
I don't want to discuss about who is right and who is wrong here, because I try to keep myself as far from the politics as I can. My questions are:

1) What is the meaning of these words (right, law, freedom, liberty) to you?
2) How about the equivalents of these words in other languages - is the meaning language-dependent?
3) How the possible differences of these words in different languages can influence the history of nations?
I love to use words... even if I slightly disobey the grammar rules ;)

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Re: Freedom and liberty, rights and law
« Reply #1 on: June 02, 2019, 09:38:47 pm »
These are really good questions, Martin. Thanks for posting them. I've never thought about how the way we perceive the meaning of these words could be language-related.

1) I see Right as something no one can take away from you (or no one should be allowed to, technically, but some countries don't worry about this too much), I think of basic human rights and rights given by law. They're something you can demand and should be enforceable.
Law is a field of study or an individual law (rule), either man-made or described by science (laws of physics).
Freedom and Liberty are ones I struggle with. I assumed they both meant general lack of control or oppression.

2) In Czech: right = právo, law (field of study) = právo or práva, law (individual rule) = zákon
so there is the same term for two of them but it's usually clear which one you mean.

Freedom and liberty would both be svoboda. Freedom of speech = svoboda slova, Statue of Liberty = Socha Svobody.
I had to look up the difference. If I'm correct, liberty is something everyone has but not everyone has freedom as it is more subjective?
We do have the word volnost as well. I guess it could be used as freedom but more in relation to animals or one's emotional state.

3) I am not sure but we might be able to see a pattern once more people have replied.
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Re: Freedom and liberty, rights and law
« Reply #2 on: June 03, 2019, 07:10:51 am »
It is all about power. I mean in a broad sense of that word like money, muscles (military force), institutional position in a society etc. Freedom or Liberty (aren't they interchangeable words?) is ability to do anything you want as long as you have power to do it without any repercussions.  Rights is very abstract meaningless term on its own. If you have a power, you have rights. If you don't have a power, you have no any rights. If you meet  a guy with  a gun and you don't have one, you are basically screwed, no matter what is written on some papers or  stones or whatever. And what is the law? As long as you have power to enforce it, it will work. On the other hand, if you have a power, you can break the law without consequences.
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Re: Freedom and liberty, rights and law
« Reply #3 on: June 03, 2019, 09:08:33 am »
@Nikola
1) I have similar views to the difference between 'right' and 'law'.
I treated the freedom and liberty as synonymous so far... Giving it a deeper thought  I would say (without checking anything in dictionary) that freedom is more what we feel and the liberty is a more abstract concept meaning all that *freedoms* our countries provide us by the use of law. But it's different to what I heard in the debate yesterday.
2) The same with prawo, but we use it for individual rules too. The word "zakon" in Polish means the monastery (building) or the group of monks/nuns (congregation) or the order they obey (e.g. the monks of the Franciscan Order). In this context one of the Harry Potter books has the title "Zakon Feniksa".
We have the word "swoboda" but it's rather the freedom of movement or freedom of doing what you want to do. So wolność and swoboda work just opposite way in our languages (like many other words).
3) I'm not sure. I was thinking everybody sees the difference between the law and the right even though we use the same word - it's like everyone sees the difference between the door lock and the castle even though both are called "zamek" (at least in Russian they differentiate "замок" with different accent placing but Polish isn't accent-sensitive).

@Pasha
I can agree that in societies with dysfunctional  law, when the freedom is not granted by it (or is granted in theory only), the power is what you use to provide a kind of freedom to you.
We often forget it living in countries like EU members, US and others. Our countries give us at least the illusion of safety. Of course everybody knows that things like murders are happening and that some groups of citizens are privileged in the eyes of authorities. But we  feel we have the enough amount of freedom and safety.
I remember it was similar even in the times of communism (speaking about ordinary criminal assaults not about the political things) - the people were feeling safe and protected by the police (which had more rights and privileges then - now they have more limits and rules to obey).
I love to use words... even if I slightly disobey the grammar rules ;)

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Re: Freedom and liberty, rights and law
« Reply #4 on: June 03, 2019, 10:15:42 am »
We might need Steven to explain the difference between "freedom" and "liberty", and also between "right/s" and "law".
However, as I understand it, even though they're frequently used as synonyms, freedom is the general thing. As in: I'm free to travel the world, for example. In theory, I could go anywhere I pleased and where my passport is accepted; at any rate, nobody could stop me from leaving my country. In practice, though, I'm constrained by family obligations and also by lack of money. Therefore, I'm actually not at liberty to travel.

German doesn't make the distiction, there is just the one word: Freiheit.

We do have one word for "right/s", Recht/e, and another one for "law", Gesetz. And the way I see it, laws are often there to curtail your rights. While we do have freedom of speech, Recht auf freie Meinungsäußerung, for example, there are laws against insulting people. However, the two do cross over at times, because we talk about Rechtssprechung (court rulings).

As to n° 3... You know, Marcin, for somebody who's just claimed his English wasn't up to complicated discussions, you don't half ask difficult questions, do you?  :D
Anyway, there is no state where everyone is completely free, is there? Nor would you wish to live in a state where everybody was free to kill off or rob other people at will, for example, would you? And governments are always pretty good at telling their people how it's to everybody's good that their rights have been curtailed, aren't they? You'd therefore always want to take a really close look at the laws to be able to judge to whose benefit everybody's rights had really been reduced.
Personally, I think it's pretty dangerous, for example, if there is a serious infringement of individual people's rights/freedom, introduced solely to guarantee the continued existence of a state (read: one particular government). Take for example the laws against leaving the GDR - people got shot simply for wanting to live in a different country. Still, I'm sure schoolchildren in Eastern Germany were taught they were growing up in a free country, that they actually had much more freedom than the slaves of capitalism across the border.
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Re: Freedom and liberty, rights and law
« Reply #5 on: June 03, 2019, 12:05:57 pm »
You know, Marcin, for somebody who's just claimed his English wasn't up to complicated discussions, you don't half ask difficult questions, do you?  :D
I just felt myself obliged to mobilize my mind and write a few posts yesterday evening (even though my wife wasn't happy about it - she would prefer to watch a movie together). I had no time to check dictionaries or other sources, so... if you think my English is still understandable - I'm satisfied (I'm not preparing to take any exam on it anyway).
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Anyway, there is no state where everyone is completely free, is there? Nor would you wish to live in a state where everybody was free to kill off or rob other people at will, for example, would you?
Of course. It's obvious that one's freedom should be limited by other people freedom rights (and by common sense, natural law, religion, whatever you will call it). And the law should be the instrument of keeping the freedom equally balanced.
Quote
I think it's pretty dangerous, for example, if there is a serious infringement of individual people's rights/freedom, introduced solely to guarantee the continued existence of a state (read: one particular government). Take for example the laws against leaving the GDR - people got shot simply for wanting to live in a different country. Still, I'm sure schoolchildren in Eastern Germany were taught they were growing up in a free country, that they actually had much more freedom than the slaves of capitalism across the border.
I do totally agree. It wasn't my intention to advocate the communism or show it's benefits - It's forbidden by the law in my country by the way, but I was old enough (even as a teenager) to see what wasn't working properly in this system. Of course we were taught officially that the system we used to live in in 80's was the best in the world. But one has not to be a genius to see it didn't work in practice. I know that the power given to the police and military forces was to keep people where they were and with their mouths shut. I was answering to Pasha's post, which connected freedom to safety. I mean that even badly designed law may be effective against the common crimes. Of course until the politics and ideology gets involved in the matter. When the criminal knows someone, who knows someone... it appears suddenly that his victim is the one who committed the crime.It was a popular song in the '80s which concluded 'my stupor doesn't go away until today, that they called thieves "the political system"'. The police in democratic countries often complains nowadays, that they have no instrument to fight against the criminals, being too limited by citizens' rights. It doesn't mean I would prefer to live in any kind of totalitarianism.
There's another Polish song with refrain like that: 'Freedom... I love and understand. Freedom... I can't give away.'
I love to use words... even if I slightly disobey the grammar rules ;)

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Re: Freedom and liberty, rights and law
« Reply #6 on: June 03, 2019, 03:08:27 pm »
 Japanese words originally are related to Chinese and the word of freedom didn't exist until 1862. It was imported and translated into Japanese. It has a positive meaning. Before the positive word, freedom, people in the old time seemed to use another word to mean "being selfish" as freedom.
Freedom, liberty, right, these words are just 100- 150 years old in Japan. All Japanese know the meaning of them, but they didn't feel they were things to cherish and keep an important philosophy and idea. Because we didn't fight to acquire them, unlike France. We ourselves didn't change the country to the democratic. Those ideas were given and taught by the westerners.
Of course, we discuss and fight for that, for example, to establish women's right or freedom. Then we always have to quote Europe and US way to prove how the women's right is admitted by the laws. Japanese can't do anything without good examples from westerners. We are behind as a civilized country from the advanced world, but interestingly Japan is known to the world as one of the safest countries. The freedom country, the US is known as a dangerous society where citizens have rights to hold the guns to protect themselves. It is a sad contradictory.
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Re: Freedom and liberty, rights and law
« Reply #7 on: June 03, 2019, 03:11:14 pm »
Martin, this is very coincident! I watched the film Powidoki by Andrzej Wajda last night. Then I found this discussion this morning. Surprising! I don't know why I chose the film on Netflix last night.

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Re: Freedom and liberty, rights and law
« Reply #8 on: June 03, 2019, 03:46:59 pm »
 I have something interesting story regarding the words, right, and law. This is just my own original idea so please take it with a grain of salt.
The word, right, has three meaning. It means to be correct. The other meaning is to be qualified. And the last one is the opposite of left.
One day, when I saw the famous painting、” Last Judgment" by Michelangelo in the book, it took my breath away.
"Oh..! That's why! Right and Left"
 I understood the painting said, "God let the people who did the right things go to the right place. God left the people who did the wrong things to the left place."
If you look at the painting, Last Judgment, you will get the meaning of my saying.
If you live to do the right things, you will give the right to be free and you are protected by God. But God is always busy to help people all over the world so that human invented "laws" to protect them.
I'm not religious but I thought of this story seriously.
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Re: Freedom and liberty, rights and law
« Reply #9 on: June 03, 2019, 05:11:45 pm »
I like your analysis of the "Last Judgement" (painting and the whole idea).  :D
I remember I liked this movie (Powidoki) when I was watching it. Now I forgot the details and it's obviously worth refreshing in my memory.

The story about the word "freedom" in Japanese reminds us of another truth.
We are thinking about (doubtful in this case) influence of the word meaning on history, and forget that real meaning of it depends on the history of nations which use it. In Europe most countries have longer or shorter episodes in history when their freedom understood as independence was temporarily lost, limited or at least endangered. There are even nations which didn't manage to win their independence for centuries. The freedom is what they could (or can) only dream of.
I love to use words... even if I slightly disobey the grammar rules ;)
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