Even Greener Pastures

Hi SHL (hopefully you're reading this), I have a small question for you. You're a lawyer, so I just thought that you might know the answer. In American English, do the words "prison" and "jail" have different meanings? Like, "jail" is a place for serving a short sentence, and "prison" — for serving a sentence of longer than a year? I told one person from England about this distinction and was assured that I was talking nonsense because the terms are actually interchangeable. So I'm just wondering if this distinction really exists in AmE and the author of my textbook didn't make it up.

Officially Irena is right, and anyone involved with law enforcement will use the words that way.  In actuality people throw the two words around interchangeably

There is also the word "Penitentiary", which usually refers to a Federal Prison - laws broken on the Federal level.  You don't want to go to the pen.

They’re all horrible, although I heard that same thing Susan mentioned about the feds.

The good O US of A. The highest incarceration rate in the world. Nothing to be proud of. I wonder if there might be something wrong with the system in the „Land of the Free“? And overcrowding in prisons? It’s a scandal.

In Holland the incarceration rate is so low, they ship prisoners in from Belgium just to fill up the empty spaces. Tells you a lot about the American mentality.

Neal, is Rikers Island still in operation in NY? Heard it was like a modern day Alcatraz.

Rikers is New York City's Jail.  You don't want to go to Rikers.

I have always heard Federal time was rougher.  Perhaps the facilities are nicer, but as far as I know there is no time off for good behavior in the Penitentiary, and things are VERY regimented.  But I dont know for sure.

I am sure like everything else, Prison depends on the state.  Some of NY State's Prisons are old, supposedly very cold in winter but otherwise we are a liberal state and I am sure NY Prison is better than most of the South.  In New York we even allow "conjugal visits".

And as for the rate of incarceration, that is Clinton's legacy.   

That’s interesting Neal. I didn’t know Rikers was just a NYC jail. I thought it was a NY prison. Plus, it’s really old and I believe it’s on an island, isn’t it, because the name is Rikers Island? But, it’s got a reputation thoughout the country as being pretty bad, like one rivialing Alcatraz.

You’re right about the State prisons probably being more liberal than the federal ones, at least in the more liberal States (they’re all bad, but I guess you can say there are degrees of bad). And, you are right. The prisons in the US South are outrageously horrible, the worst being Angola State Prison in Lousiana. I heard it’s run like a old Southern style slave plantation from 1850. I’m sure it has all the comforts of an old Soviet style Gulag.

That’s the thing about the US. There’s a veil of silence over certain bad things here that you don’t talk about.

The rate of incarceration, whoever started it (and I have a hunch it was really Reagan with his mandatory minimums from the 80s), is something someone should do something about.  Prison reform is needed and the US needs to enter the 21st century, like Europe.

For anyone who has looked at this thread, I would encourage you to read Neal`s link to Riker`s Island. It´s an appalling story.

This is classic 3rd world country prison stuff. Here`s a brief piece (only partial excerpt) from the Economist, from a 2017 story about the place. Let´s hope they close the „torture island“ down soon.

„KALIEF BROWDER was 16 years old when he was arrested for allegedly stealing a backpack. When his family could not pay bail, he was sent to Rikers Island, New York’s largest jail. There he spent around 800 days in solitary confinement; he was beaten by guards and other inmates and tried several times to kill himself. Because his hearings were delayed, he ended up spending three years on Rikers, all the while claiming his innocence. His case was dismissed in 2013 and he was released. But the damage had been done, and he eventually killed himself. His tale, not an unusual one, provoked a campaign to close the “torture island”, as inmates call it, altogether. Bill de Blasio, New York’s mayor, agrees. On March 31st he vowed to begin a ten-year process to shut it.

Three-quarters of the roughly 9,400 people held in New York City’s jails have not been convicted of anything. Most are housed on Rikers. The place has become a warehouse for people too poor to post bail or suffering from addiction or mental-health problems (jails, unlike prisons, are locally operated and hold people serving short sentences or awaiting trial). Because of backlogs, many wait months for their day in court. Even a short stay behind bars can be very disruptive. It can mean loss of job, home and custody of children.....“

It´s hard to compare 3rd world prisons to those in the US, but US prisons are not much better. Different, but not necessarily in a more humane way.

I`ve watched several German YouTube videos under a series called „Hinter fremden Gittern“, behind foreign bars, which deals with German nationals who are imprisoned in Latin American jails, normally over drug smuggling offenses. Often the guys were set up, offered something like 10,000€ in Germany to fly to say Lima, Peru, to pick up drugs to smuggle. They were to be paid the money when they get back. The airfare is paid for in advance, as well as like 2 nights in a cheap Lima hotel. Then, of course, the smugglers get caught at the airport in Lima trying to get back.

This is frequently done as a cover for real smugglers to make it easier for them to get through. So the guys getting caught were just decoys (I thought there was an English word for this, but I can`t seem to think of one at the moment. There might not be one. If anyone knows, let me know. I thought it might be „patsy“, but the German translation doesn`t seem to fit. It just matches the English Webster’s definition). Sending the guys in to get caught as a cover for the real smugglers is what I`d call in German a „Ablenkungsmanöver“ or a diversionary tactic. That seems to be the only word that fits.

But, the series shows the conditions of 3rd world prisons. There was a segment on 5 or 6 German guys in a prison in Lima serving a various number of years, from like 4-10, but they were lucky in that they were housed separatedly from the local Peruvians, who had it worse off. The food was pretty awful, and the overcrowding was pretty terrible- like a prison built for 750 housing 2500?

It´s an apples and oranges comparison, but in some ways the Peruvian prisons were better, in some ways worse than the US ones. Like in the Peruvian prisons there was virtually no medical care (except for a really ridiculous little clinic), where in the US there is some semblance of some medical care, even if it is poor. And the Peruvian food looked deadly, where in the US, it might not be good, but it is not likely deadly. The positives about the Peruvian system was the prisoners got to wear their street clothes, so there was no sense of perpetual humiliation, and the guards didn`t abuse them. They just demanded bribes for everything (better food, a bed, etc). In the US, many of the guards are just sadists.(see Neal`s Riker`s Island article.)

Plus, in the Peruvian prisons, the prisoners are allowed to just wonder around the prison all day. They`re just locked up at night. This may increase the risk that they harm one another, but at least they don`t spend 23 hours a day in a cell. That seems more humane to me, to be allowed to wonder around all day. They were also allowed to earn a tiny bit of money by working in woodworking shops.

Plus, in Peru they had weekly conjugal visits, or entire family visits, where the families would show up with little kids and bring the inmates food and supplies. That doesn`t happen in US prisons. And, there was always a long line of prostitutes at the Peruvian prison to pay visits to the inmates. It was technically not allowed but all it took was 50 cents to pay a guard to look away. Again, that doesn't happen in the US.

Sofia,

I just checked a German article about bailing out on a criminal charge in Germany, and you are correct. It really is the exception rather than the norm, unlike in the US. Although German law technically allows for it, it is rather uncommon, quite rare in fact, except in cases of doubtful criminal charges.

So, it’s possible it seems, but pretty unusual. And it would seem they don’t have bailbonds men in Germany either.

https://www.focus.de/finanzen/experten/tobias_klingelhoefer/untersuchungshaft-eine-kaution-fuer-verdaechtige-ist-eher-selten_id_8470891.html

Many thanks to everyone commented, especially to SHL! (ah, Steven, I really hope you actually know what my name sounds like and "Kesnii" is just a typo!). So, jails are for people awaiting trial and serving short sentences, and prisons are for long-term incarceration. At least in the US. Got it.
And you have bounty hunters! Amazing.

Sorry, Kseniia, yes that was a typo.

You scratched out the part about bounty hunters. Yeah, we really do have those people. Just like the Wild West. So, if you „jump bail“ as we call it you`ve got the cops AND a bounty hunter looking for you.

You know the expression „it´s time to get out of Dodge“? Dodge is like somewhere in the midwest, like Kansas or someplace (Susan could tell you) and back in the 1800s, like the cowboy era, if you were wanted and in the City of Dodge, it was time to leave, and fast. Hence, the expression „get out of Dodge.“  So, if someone jumps bail, I`d say it`s time for that person to get out of Dodge.

One thing that´s different about the US and Europe, (I think this is true for all of Europe, not sure) but we have no registration of residency requirement here (like in Germany where they have the Einwohnermeldeamt). So, you can just pack up and move anywhere you want and never tell anyone and then settle in any town you want and never tell anyone. So, in a sense I`ve heard it`s easier to go underground in the US. If you rent a house or apartment, no one is going to expect you to register your new address with any government office. But, we sort of get around that by requiring people keep addresses on drivers licenses current. That sort of thing. And your banks and credit cards are going to want current addresses on you. So, there are little differences like that.

I have the impression that the whole thing about bail is a big business in California (no idea about the rest of the US) and that the judiciary system works hand in hand with dubious bail agencies.

Speaking of Rikers, there was a plane crash there in 1959 or so. Prisoners rushed to help and saved lives. The ones who did this were let out of jail as a reward. It's on YouTube if you're interested.

Two big things are they do not need "probable cause" and they do not need search warrants.  If you jump bail they can use any means necessary to hunt you down.  I don't think that really includes violence (unless you resist).

Hmm... And what happens in mistaken identity cases? Suppose someone jumped bail, and suppose for whatever reason, they (incorrectly) thought you were their guy. So they can just break into your house without a warrant? And when it turns out they were wrong, then what? Are they criminally responsible?

@Ksneiia and Irena,

Each State has a whole body of laws on the books that regulate bounty hunters (I`m sure they have to be licensed and bonded), and they can`t just „shoot first and ask questions later.“ It probably was like that in the Wild West in the 1880s, but not now.  They are certainly not above the law, anymore than the police are. And bounty hunters who violate the law are subject to all the criminal and civil penalties like anyone else. (I kind of agree with Jerry that a form of immunity sort of goes with positions of high power unfortunately.)

I have no idea how many people jump bail, but I don`t think the bail bonds business is a big money-maker in the US. Next to my office there`s a little bailbondsmen`s office, with a cheap neon sign in red that flashes „Bail Bonds, -24 hour Service“, all day,  but there`s never anyone there. I tried going into their office once to ask if the mailman had misdelivered a package I was expecting and their door was locked. Great 24 hour service. They didn`t look like they were making much money (my office is 5 minutes from the courthouse, which explains why these guys are all over the place). But, don`t forgetm not everyone charged with a crime has to post bail. I used to do criminal law about 20 years ago, and I sat through plenty of morning calendars in court watching other people`s cases. Instead of bail, you normally ask for and get what we call „OR“ (in cases of minor crimes, like drunk driving, domestic violence - which are misdemeanors) „OR“ stands for „Own Recognisance“. That means they let you go without posting bail, on just your promise to come to the next court date. So we used to always ask for OR on smaller cases for everyone with no record and minor offenses.  A lot of people on OR don`t show for their next court date (maybe 1/3 don`t show?) because they are just deadbeats. So, when the case was called and the defendant was a no show, the Judge would just say „OR revoked, bench warrant issued, bail set at $5,000.“ That would usually be it, and then he`d go onto the next case. Just routine. This is just an everyday thing for Judges. They probably get 20-30 no shows a day and just revoke OR, set a standard bail and issue a bench warrant. But, our local sheriff´s office has so many bench warrants to execute, that they probably have stacks of them, and I personally think they give them low priority in looking for people. The only time these guys who don`t show for court get caught is when they are driving and get pulled over by the cops. The cop runs the license number and drivers license and if the computer shows the guy has a bench warrant, then they just take him in.

But, unless someone is on OR or bail, they have to be brought to court within like 72 hours or something and tried in like 10 days, under their speedy trial rights, unless they waive time, as we call it (this is all just lawyer jargon of course). If on OR or bail, they usually do waive time to avoid rushing to trial.

Glad I don`t do criminal defense anymore. It`s a hard way to make a living.

I never liked criminal law, because you are pretty much always on the losing end of the stick and you know it (sorry, but these guys are usually guilty as sh*t), and you wind up just begging the DA (prosecutor) for a deal, or a reduced charge, or lighter sentence so you can go back to your client and say „Guess what a good deal I got for you! I`m a genius!“ And then you negotiate more, and it´s just this back and forth game you play. The DA wants to settle the case and so do you. So, everything is a compromise. You only try the cases where your guy is factually innocent and/or  the evidence against them is really weak, or you just get unlucky and you get a DA who is a real a*shole. Most are not. They are usually young females right out of law school, with husbands and kids and they are just doing a job. And they are often nice people.

Here is a blurb on bounty hunters in the US:

https://people.howstuffworks.com/bounty-hunting1.htm

I forgot extradition, bounty hunters do not need to go thru that process, their hunt can cross state lines.
A really fun movie about a bounty hunter is "Midnight Run" (not to be confused with "Midnight Express"!), highly recommended.

In the blurb above they mention a couple of TV "Reality Shows" about bounty hunters.  'Dog' the Bounty Hunter made a name for himself by going to Mexico and capturing the rapist heir to the Max Factor fortune, and embarrassing the FBI in the process:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2003/jun/20/usa.mexico

The Mexican govt held him for several days on kidnapping charges!  That made Dog a minor celebrity in the US, and he had a long running TV show.

That´s a pretty old story (2003), but you can`t have people just going into other countries and kidnapping fugitives. The US would not be very happy about undercover Mexican bounty hunters (which I doubt they even have) coming into the US, grabbing someone, and then sending them back to Mexico without as much as even consulting the local authorities. Turn the tables and the problem is obvious.

Coligno, yes, I know the term, I think I first encountered it in "No Béarla 2" in which Manchán Magan had a conversation with Jake Mac Siacais about the Jailtacht in Long Kesh. And shortly afterwards I watched the film "Hunger" with Fassbender (part of me wishes I hadn't, what happened there was horrifying...). Haven't read Feargal's book, though, so thank you for the link.
But I think the role of Irish as a tool of resistance in prisons is not limited to the period of the Troubles. "Ní Síocháin gan Saoirse" and other messages written on the walls of Kilmainham Gaol (or Príosún Chill Mhaighneann) come to mind. By the way, nowadays we even have these short stories in modern Irish language textbooks for beginners: