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Vegetarian, Vegan, Gay
« on: June 13, 2019, 09:30:04 am »
First of all, I'd like to stress that this is a question about language and not about people's lifestyle choices or sexual orientation.

These three words can be used as either a noun or an adjective. Some people say that the only correct way of using them when talking about a person being X is by using a noun. "She's a vegetarian." However, I also heard people say that they don't like referring to themselves as "a vegan". They much prefer "vegan" because they wouldn't want to say "I'm a gay" either.

I'd like to know what people here think. How do the following sentences sound to you? Is one of them right and the other one wrong? Does one of them sound more natural?

She's vegetarian.   vs     She's a vegetarian.
She's vegan.         vs     She's a vegan.
She's gay.            vs     She's a gay.
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Re: Vegetarian, Vegan, Gay
« Reply #1 on: June 13, 2019, 09:52:25 am »
How much of it is due to the fact that at least in how English is spoken in the US, that A sound before the V is often just swallowed, to the extent that in normal speech you couldn't really tell if the letter was pronounced or not?
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Re: Vegetarian, Vegan, Gay
« Reply #2 on: June 13, 2019, 10:50:11 am »
That's a fair point. So would you always use "a" in writing? In all of them?
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Re: Vegetarian, Vegan, Gay
« Reply #3 on: June 13, 2019, 11:03:39 am »
Interesting question, Nikola!

Just my two cents: "She's a gay" really stands out to me as awkward, if not downright wrong. That's something I'd never say.

As to vegetarians and vegans, I think it used to be correct to use the words as nouns when talking about people ("s/he's a vegetarian/vegan"), but I've heard/seen them used without the indefinite article so often by now - perhaps it doesn't matter anymore?

Technically speaking - but don't take my word for it, my German may be interfering here! - I think you could take "she's vegetarian/vegan" to mean that she doesn't contain meat/animal products, couldn't you?

At any rate, that's the way it works in German: Probieren Sie doch die Frühlingsrolle, sie ist vegetarisch. (Do try the spring roll, it's vegetarian.) vs. Ich esse kein Fleisch, ich bin Vegetarier/in. (I don't eat meat, I'm a vegetarian.)

Which - sorry! - automatically leads me to the intricacies of German orthography and pronunciation: Er ist Vegetarier (He's a vegetarian) vs. Er isst Vegetarier (He eats vegetarians)  ;D

Edit: There's a - pretty short - discussion about this on wordreference.com:
The context is the following: My sister is....; she doesn´t eat any meat or fish. Can we use "vegetarian" as an adjective or do we need the article "a"? Thanks
WordReference Forums · forum.wordreference.com

tl;dr
Some native speakers seem to think both are fine, while others are in favour of using "a vegetarian/vegan" for people.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2019, 11:22:22 am by Alharacas »

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Re: Vegetarian, Vegan, Gay
« Reply #4 on: June 13, 2019, 11:30:27 am »
"She's a gay" sounds really weird to me. For vegetarian/vegan, either sounds acceptable to me, but the adjective version ("she's vegetarian/vegan") sounds more natural.
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Re: Vegetarian, Vegan, Gay
« Reply #5 on: June 13, 2019, 11:32:01 am »
Just my two cents: "She's a gay" really stands out to me as awkward, if not downright wrong. That's something I'd never say.
I agree. It sounds a bit foreign, actually. Like "I'm a Spanish" :)

Technically speaking - but don't take my word for it, my German may be interfering here! - I think you could take "she's vegetarian/vegan" to mean that she doesn't contain meat/animal products, couldn't you?
I think that is (or was) the idea but people use "I'm vegan" so much, and especially after reading about the girl who deliberately chooses to say "vegan" over "a vegan", I'm starting to wonder if it's about avoiding labels (you're a... something) more than anything else. I might be wrong.
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Re: Vegetarian, Vegan, Gay
« Reply #6 on: June 13, 2019, 11:37:08 am »
How much of it is due to the fact that at least in how English is spoken in the US, that A sound before the V is often just swallowed, to the extent that in normal speech you couldn't really tell if the letter was pronounced or not?

Hmm... But you would say "she's a vampire," though, wouldn't you? It would sound really weird without the article, I think.

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Re: Vegetarian, Vegan, Gay
« Reply #7 on: June 13, 2019, 11:42:27 am »
Hmm... But you would say "she's a vampire," though, wouldn't you? It would sound really weird without the article, I think.
If only Neal got a dollar each time he said that...
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Re: Vegetarian, Vegan, Gay
« Reply #8 on: June 13, 2019, 12:34:50 pm »
I'm starting to wonder if it's about avoiding labels (you're a... something) more than anything else. I might be wrong.
It's always seemed to me that those who say "I'm vegan" are taking the label/identity aspect to the next level, not avoiding it. Vegan literally becomes how they see themselves and relate to the world. It's subtle outwardly but has a deep meaning to them. It's who they ARE. Not what they DO.
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Re: Vegetarian, Vegan, Gay
« Reply #9 on: June 13, 2019, 12:40:07 pm »
Just my two cents: "She's a gay" really stands out to me as awkward, if not downright wrong. That's something I'd never say.
I agree. It sounds a bit foreign, actually. Like "I'm a Spanish" :)

Technically speaking - but don't take my word for it, my German may be interfering here! - I think you could take "she's vegetarian/vegan" to mean that she doesn't contain meat/animal products, couldn't you?
I think that is (or was) the idea but people use "I'm vegan" so much, and especially after reading about the girl who deliberately chooses to say "vegan" over "a vegan", I'm starting to wonder if it's about avoiding labels (you're a... something) more than anything else. I might be wrong.

I was going to add a 2nd edit to my first post, but now it seems to me the object of this endless discussion (about "He's gay" vs. "He's a gay")

I know the common saying is, "He is gay." However, gay is a countable noun, so isn't "He is a gay" more grammatically appropriate?
WordReference Forums · forum.wordreference.com


may have had some impact on the question of whether "vegetarian" is preferable to "a vegetarian" - at least for some people.

tl;dr
"he's gay" is both correct and idiomatic. "he's a gay", on the other hand, while not being ungrammatical, is a) unidiomatic and b) derogative.
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Re: Vegetarian, Vegan, Gay
« Reply #10 on: June 13, 2019, 12:49:55 pm »
I'm starting to wonder if it's about avoiding labels (you're a... something) more than anything else. I might be wrong.
It's always seemed to me that those who say "I'm vegan" are taking the label/identity aspect to the next level, not avoiding it. Vegan literally becomes how they see themselves and relate to the world. It's subtle outwardly but has a deep meaning to them. It's who they ARE. Not what they DO.
But aren't nouns linked with identity more than adjectives? If you say "I'm American" and "I'm an American", which one has more of an identity feel to it? I'd say the latter but I'm not a native speaker.
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Re: Vegetarian, Vegan, Gay
« Reply #11 on: June 13, 2019, 12:50:42 pm »
Interesting, Jerry. I'd say it was the other way around.

How about "German"? Isn't there a difference between introducing me as "This is Susanne. She's a German" and "This is my German friend, Susanne"? Being presented as "a German" would make me feel that this was seen as my defining quality, I'd much rather be introduced differently. Is that just me?

Irena, your example won't wash, sorry. :D Vegetarian, vegan, gay and German, for that matter, all work as both nouns and adjectives, while a vampire is always a noun. The adjective would be "vampirical" or "vampiric".

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Re: Vegetarian, Vegan, Gay
« Reply #12 on: June 13, 2019, 01:03:30 pm »
I'm starting to wonder if it's about avoiding labels (you're a... something) more than anything else. I might be wrong.
It's always seemed to me that those who say "I'm vegan" are taking the label/identity aspect to the next level, not avoiding it. Vegan literally becomes how they see themselves and relate to the world. It's subtle outwardly but has a deep meaning to them. It's who they ARE. Not what they DO.
But aren't nouns linked with identity more than adjectives? If you say "I'm American" and "I'm an American", which one has more of an identity feel to it? I'd say the latter but I'm not a native speaker.

They both have the same ID feel to them to me. But I'm AN American sounds more natural.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2019, 03:01:23 pm by Beech 18 »

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Re: Vegetarian, Vegan, Gay
« Reply #13 on: June 13, 2019, 01:03:59 pm »
I was going to add a 2nd edit to my first post, but now it seems to me the object of this endless discussion (about "He's gay" vs. "He's a gay")

https://forum.wordreference.com/threads/he-is-gay-he-is-a-gay.2566761/

may have had some impact on the question of whether "vegetarian" is preferable to "a vegetarian" - at least for some people.

tl;dr
"he's gay" is both correct and idiomatic. "he's a gay", on the other hand, while not being ungrammatical, is a) unidiomatic and b) derogative.
I'd seen the first of the two wordreference discussions prior to writing my post but hadn't seen this one. "A gay" is seen as pejorative. So that does sound like people don't want that label. It's a bit like them saying "it's just one of the things that describe me (adjectives), it's not who I am (a noun).
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Re: Vegetarian, Vegan, Gay
« Reply #14 on: June 13, 2019, 01:18:11 pm »
Irena, your example won't wash, sorry. :D Vegetarian, vegan, gay and German, for that matter, all work as both nouns and adjectives, while a vampire is always a noun. The adjective would be "vampirical" or "vampiric".
I think Irena was just talking about the sound "a" because Neal said it could be swallowed before a "v", suggesting that even in sentences where it's required as an article, people might not pronounce it. So I assumed she meant "you wouldn't swallow an 'a' before 'vampire', it would sound weird".

I do like the word vampirical, though. It sounds very scientific.
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Re: Vegetarian, Vegan, Gay
« Reply #15 on: June 13, 2019, 03:02:43 pm »
"you wouldn't swallow an 'a' before 'vampire', it would sound weird".
Is the 'a' vegan? Obviously the vampire is not vegan.  :D

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Re: Vegetarian, Vegan, Gay
« Reply #16 on: June 13, 2019, 04:10:44 pm »
"you wouldn't swallow an 'a' before 'vampire', it would sound weird".
Is the 'a' vegan? Obviously the vampire is not vegan.  :D
I think that "a" is both vegan and a vegan. "A" wouldn't eat meat whereas "I" would.
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Re: Vegetarian, Vegan, Gay
« Reply #17 on: June 13, 2019, 04:29:56 pm »
Irena, your example won't wash, sorry. :D Vegetarian, vegan, gay and German, for that matter, all work as both nouns and adjectives, while a vampire is always a noun. The adjective would be "vampirical" or "vampiric".
I think Irena was just talking about the sound "a" because Neal said it could be swallowed before a "v", suggesting that even in sentences where it's required as an article, people might not pronounce it. So I assumed she meant "you wouldn't swallow an 'a' before 'vampire', it would sound weird".

I do like the word vampirical, though. It sounds very scientific.


Yup. That's what I meant.

Take "she's a violinist" vs. "she's violent." Would you swallow the indefinite article in the first case? I wouldn't (or at least I don't think I would).

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Re: Vegetarian, Vegan, Gay
« Reply #18 on: June 13, 2019, 04:40:17 pm »
I'm starting to wonder if it's about avoiding labels (you're a... something) more than anything else. I might be wrong.
It's always seemed to me that those who say "I'm vegan" are taking the label/identity aspect to the next level, not avoiding it. Vegan literally becomes how they see themselves and relate to the world. It's subtle outwardly but has a deep meaning to them. It's who they ARE. Not what they DO.

Really? I don't know, maybe. To me, "I'm vegan" means something like "I do veganism," whereas "I'm a vegan" means "I'm one of the vegans." Something like that.  ;) Of course, I'm not a native English speaker, and articles (alas!) remain my English Achilles heel.  :-[ [ETA: It's even worse with French. Much worse. Sigh.] That said, I am vegan, and that's how I normally say it (without the indefinite article).

Now, sometimes, I might say "I am the vegan." For example, if I ordered a special (vegan) meal somewhere or other, I might say that to the waiter (so he knows who that one vegan meal is for).
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Re: Vegetarian, Vegan, Gay
« Reply #19 on: June 13, 2019, 06:40:08 pm »
It really is almost swallowed.  The best you would get before violinist is sheza or shes uh but it really would be hard to pick it out.  Especially here in NY, where we do talk fast.
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Re: Vegetarian, Vegan, Gay
« Reply #20 on: June 13, 2019, 06:43:01 pm »
It really is almost swallowed.  The best you would get before violinist is sheza or shes uh but it really would be hard to pick it out.  Especially here in NY, where we do talk fast.

Right. But you wouldn't get that in front of violent, right? Just shes violent. No uh.

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Re: Vegetarian, Vegan, Gay
« Reply #21 on: June 13, 2019, 11:21:41 pm »
You are correct there, not even a swallowed sound before violent.
I think Jerry hit the nail on the head, it is only going to matter to people making a statement about their identity.
I can't back it up with rules, but for me it would be natural for me to say he's vegan, he's a vegetarian, he's gay.
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Re: Vegetarian, Vegan, Gay
« Reply #22 on: June 13, 2019, 11:33:12 pm »
Don‘t trust New Yorkers (because they can be naturally rude) or Hoosiers (Indianans, such as Jerry)- just kidding folks. Trust a Californian! (We speak the best English in the country you know- I don’t know what those other people are speaking outside this State.... :)) )

Anyway, here‘s my take on it. You can say „I‘m a vegan/vegetarian“ and that’s fine. Native speakers say that all the time. They say, probably equally, „I‘m vegan/vegetarian“, and where I live no one pays a bit of attention to the difference. Is there a technical rule on it? I have no idea, but to me the „a“ in either case is just optional. I suppose you might try to split hairs and make some kind of distinction, but locally no one does. If I said I were vegan/a vegan no one would bat an eye and the people I live around wouldn’t even notice the slightest difference (maybe the locals are just dumb? I don’t know).

As to gay, THAT is a whole different matter. The expression is „I am gay/straight/trans/bi“ whatever. Now, having said that, I have heard people say „He’s a gay you know!“ (with a look of horror in their face). I‘ve never heard anyone say they were „a straight“, just they are straight, but they would oddly enough say „a heterosexual.“ Or you could say „a homosexual“ but that sounds clinical and really old, like pre-1970s era. Now that I think about it, that does seem inconsistent. Same goes for „a bi“ or „a trans“. Never heard that said like that ever; but, I have heard people, sort of derogatorily say someone is „a trannie.“ So, is there a rule there? Yeah, some sort of rule, but I really don‘t know what it is.

But, to call someone „a gay“ does carry a negative connotation to it. Definitely and always. It sounds like someone out of the 1950s. Sort of like saying „he’s a pervert.“ That’s probably the connection. During the period of gay liberation, especially in San Francisco, it was always „to be gay“ or „he is gay“ or „she is lesbian“, but oddly it was never derogatory to say „She is a lesbian.“ Why? I have no idea. In fact, just saying „She is lesbian“ sounds a little odd me. Not terribly so, but I wouldn’t say that myself.

So, it‘s a really good question, and one that deserves a good answer, but the answer is much more nuanced than one would think. I’m just saying what sounds right to me. „Jill is a lesbian and John, her brother is gay.“ Don‘t ever say „John is a gay.“ That sounds like „John is a pervert“ or something and needs electroshock treatments or something. Not cool.

Here‘s where Alharacas can help out. In German I learned that when you were talking about, perhaps immutable characteristics or identities, professions, you left out the „a“, or the ein, the indefinite article. So „Er ist Berliner“ instead of like JFKs famously embarrassing „Ich bin ein Berliner“, (a Berliner is a jelly doughnut, which are my favorite actually- jelly filled with lots of sugar on top). Or, „Er ist Amerikaner/Deutscher“ that sort of thing. Religions, nationalities, professions. „Sie ist Rechtsanwältin“ or „sie ist Ärztin.“ With gay men anyway, German does generally the same- „Er ist schwul.“

 I‘m reading a really good book at the moment that was published in 1978 by a US gay activist, Larry Kramer, translated into German, called „Schwuchteln.“ Schwuchteln means „****“ in German, which is the name of the original English book (It’s actually an excellent book critical of the excesses of gay male -rather extreme -sexual promiscuity in the late 70s in New York, about 3 years before the HIV/AIDS epidemic broke). It‘s funny, and thought-provoking and not homophobic in the least. Quite the opposite. But, it was boycotted by gay people in NYC when it first was published, even though it was 100% accurate in its depictions of what was going on, and New York‘s only gay bookstore in 1978 (Oscar Wilde books or something) banned it from their shelves. The forward to the book describes it as almost eerily prophetic of something really bad about to come, which in fact did. I love the writer of the forward‘s remarks (written on a re-publication in 2002), „When young, the body is like a never-tiring workhorse. Throw all the abuse at it you like, and it just keeps bouncing back. BUT, it neither forgives, nor forgets that abuse.“ Great quote. And, so true.

My hunch is one would say „Er ist eine Schwuchtel“ (die Tunte is another word for it, which is like queen or pansy, or die Tucke) and I think you would use the eine there too in German (to say Er ist Schwuchtel just sounds off to me). „Er ist eine Tunte.“ Schwuchtel, Tunte, Tucke all carry the feeling that the person is effeminate, whereas schwul, to my knowledge, doesn’t.

I don't know why exactly, but it just sounds weird to me to leave out the indefinite article with Schwuchtel, Tunte, or Tucke. With German I rely a lot on instinct, like in English, but Alharacas is the expert here.

Also, I learned there is an exception when dropping the indefinite article, ein/eine where an adjective is between the indefinite article and the noun. When that is the case you have to use the indefinite article. So, „Er ist ein gesunder Deutscher“.  That exception I recall from 40 years ago. And, you have to do that too in English- „he’s a healthy German.“ But, with English, „He’s a nice gay“ just doesn’t work either. It just sounds weird (sounds like it’s off Google-Translate or off of WOW air’s Icelandic to English translations inside their planes from last year). You can say „he’s a gay person“ and that’s okay, or a „nice gay person“. But, for some reason, you need the „person“ part in there, otherwise it sounds VERY derogatory to my ear.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2019, 09:54:12 am by SHL »
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Re: Vegetarian, Vegan, Gay
« Reply #23 on: June 14, 2019, 04:52:58 am »
I can't back it up with rules, but for me it would be natural for me to say he's vegan, he's a vegetarian, he's gay.


Ha! That's just what I was thinking. Vegan, a vegetarian, gay. Indefinite article in front of vegetarian, but not in front of the other two. I have no sensible explanation for this. I thought that maybe my non-native intuition was playing tricks on me.  ;)
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Re: Vegetarian, Vegan, Gay
« Reply #24 on: June 14, 2019, 08:10:54 am »
I can't back it up with rules, but for me it would be natural for me to say he's vegan, he's a vegetarian, he's gay.


Ha! That's just what I was thinking. Vegan, a vegetarian, gay. Indefinite article in front of vegetarian, but not in front of the other two. I have no sensible explanation for this. I thought that maybe my non-native intuition was playing tricks on me.  ;)
Your non-native intuition is in agreement with my non-native intuition, although I have been torn between "vegetarian" and "a vegetarian" at times but that was probably because I wouldn't say "a vegan" and I assumed they had to follow the same pattern. It's very strange indeed. Could it be because a vegetarian is less likely to be mocked for who they are? Just a thought.
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Re: Vegetarian, Vegan, Gay
« Reply #25 on: June 14, 2019, 08:37:13 am »
I can't back it up with rules, but for me it would be natural for me to say he's vegan, he's a vegetarian, he's gay.


Ha! That's just what I was thinking. Vegan, a vegetarian, gay. Indefinite article in front of vegetarian, but not in front of the other two. I have no sensible explanation for this. I thought that maybe my non-native intuition was playing tricks on me.  ;)
Your non-native intuition is in agreement with my non-native intuition, although I have been torn between "vegetarian" and "a vegetarian" at times but that was probably because I wouldn't say "a vegan" and I assumed they had to follow the same pattern. It's very strange indeed. Could it be because a vegetarian is less likely to be mocked for who they are? Just a thought.



Mmm... Maybe... My hunch was that it was simply because vegetarian is a longer word than vegan. But maybe I'm totally off.  ???

ETA: Another possibility is that it's because vegetarian ends with -ian. It's a little bit strange to use -ian words as adjectives (not impossible; just a bit unusual). Does that sound plausible?
« Last Edit: June 14, 2019, 08:50:25 am by Irena »

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Re: Vegetarian, Vegan, Gay
« Reply #26 on: June 14, 2019, 10:06:44 am »
I can't back it up with rules, but for me it would be natural for me to say he's vegan, he's a vegetarian, he's gay.


Ha! That's just what I was thinking. Vegan, a vegetarian, gay. Indefinite article in front of vegetarian, but not in front of the other two. I have no sensible explanation for this. I thought that maybe my non-native intuition was playing tricks on me.  ;)

Yeah, but I’ve heard a lot of native speakers say „he’s vegetarian“ too. That sounds fine to me too. Just like saying „he’s a vegan.“ You just can’t say someone is „a gay“ but you could say „a gay person“ or „she’s a lesbian.“ I’d say with vegan and vegetarian the indefinite article is optional. There’s no rule on it either way.
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Re: Vegetarian, Vegan, Gay
« Reply #27 on: June 14, 2019, 12:04:13 pm »
California, I'd like to thank you for the extensive analysis you provided last night. That's what I call a proper comment (never mind half of it was about German) ;D

It's good to know that both a vegan/a vegetarian sound as natural to you as vegan/vegetarian. From what I've read, I think that the rule would be that unless you're a meatless dish, you're not vegetarian, you're a vegetarian (a person who doesn't eat meat) but the rule doesn't seem to matter, since people seem to really like using it as an adjective regardless.

What you're saying about gay vs a gay corresponds with what people say in the wordreference discussion we talked about earlier. I didn't know "a gay" was derogatory when I wrote my post. I thought it was just un-natural, maybe. When you say "a homosexual", it really stands out, though. It reminds me of Dr Larch from John Irving's The Cider House Rules. He's accused of being "a nonpracticing homosexual".

Oh, and this made me laugh:
In German I learned that when you were talking about, perhaps immutable characteristics or identities, professions, you left out the „a“, or the ein, the indefinite article. So „Er ist Berliner“ instead of like JFKs famously embarrassing „Ich bin ein Berliner“, (a Berliner is a jelly doughnut, which are my favorite actually- jelly filled with lots of sugar on top).
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Re: Vegetarian, Vegan, Gay
« Reply #29 on: June 16, 2019, 03:40:19 pm »
And, although it’s just my personal observation, Germans sort of like English, or at least English words, for some odd reason. I never understood that. So, I think that means they readily adopt English words like “sorry” when there really is no reason for it.

But, English is not like that. While there are a few German words English has adopted, they pale in comparison to the number of English words German has taken on.

So, if the French are still wishing to keep their language “pure”, and they may have given up on it, the Germans seem to never have had that sentiment.
This would merit a thread of its own, I think. Feel free to split, Nikola. :)

Steven, in case you're not aware of this: what Germans used to say instead of "Sorry" was neither Entschuldigung nor Verzeihung, but, er, Pardon. Pronounced with a French nasal at the end. As my mother still does.  ;)

Actually, German's had perhaps more than its fair share of purges. Without checking, I can think of at least two or three. The first one came quite early on, in the 16th or 17th century, when they tried to get rid of Latin loanwords. Until then, if I remember correctly, the German word for "surface" was "Superficies", which was replaced by "Oberfläche". A couple of hundred years later, it was about eliminating the arch-enemy, French.
And I'm sure everybody will be able to guess when last act of "purification" took place, non-specific, but actually also mostly about French. That's when we got Bahnsteig instead of "Perron" (platform) and Gehweg instead of "Trottoir" (sidewalk). People did accept these newly minted German words (mainly because everybody employed in any sort of official capacity was obliged to use them, I suspect), but I don't think any normal person felt they were a real improvement.

Mixed into those purges were almost continuous efforts to at least "Germanize" orthography, wherever particularly obstinate loanwords simply refused to leave the language. Thus, we write Perücke instead of perruque and Zentrum instead of "Centrum". As it's only been about 20 years since the last concerted effort of this kind was made (Friseur -> Frisör; Delphin -> Delfin), I'm confidently looking forward to seeing delightful little monsters like "gugeln" and "Softwär" appear - all in good time. ;D

What about Serbian, Czech, Japanese, Swiss German, or Georgian, for example?

Thank you Alharacas for your informative post. I always love hearing you inform us about German etymology, and the German language in general. Some here might have noticed my fondness for the German language (I’m not sure Neal and Jerry have quite noticed this yet....... but, it is a distinct possibility however  8) )

Pardon ist flagged as veraltend by Duden and LEO as well, with LEO’s Worthäufigkeit (word frequency for anyone else reading this except Nikola and Sofia) at 3 out of 7, and the Wortverlaufskurve (sort of the curve showing its use) only at 2.2 in 1960 and a 1.1 in 2019. (To compare a really common word like das Beispiel, Beispiel comes in on LEO’s Worthäufigkeit 5 out of 7, and a Wortverlaufskurve of 300 (Frequenz) in 1960 and Frequenz of 280 today.)

One of my favorite expressions was zum Exempel, but unfortunately it’s also considered veraltend like Pardon. My former German professor from Hamburg used to say it all the time, but she was born in 1921 and died this January at 97. Now that’s a perfectly nice word and could be a nice little alternative to zum Beispiel so why does it have to go and we get Airport an hi instead, like we need Airport? We really need hi?  What???? 

Zum Exempel appears in Franz Carl Weiskopf’s Abschied von Frieden, published in 1950 and is flagged as veraltend in LEO, and quoted “es kommt nicht leicht was Besseres nach. Zum Exempel.....wenn der Erzherzog-Thronfolger Franz Ferdinand Kaiser wird” (Weiskopf, Abschied v. Frieden, 1,383)

Exempel appears to have a Latin origin, but it still faded. Exempel still can be used in other constructions so it’s doing a bit better than Pardon with a Worthäufigkeit of 4 on a scale of 1-7 it a declining Wortverlaufskurve of a high in around 1965 of 4 and now a 2 in 2019 (that word is also flagged as Bildungssprachlich as many of my former professor’s German words were she used.)

My other German professor told us to never use the word “Charterflug” in the 70s, that it wasn’t a German word and no one would understand it (we didn’t believe him- he was a German language purist, and only wanted us to read Goethe and listen to Wagner and not read “degenerate” modern German writers like Thomas Mann or Günter Grass) , it was just an example of German “word-aping” as he called it and to say “Pachtflug” instead (I think he made that word up, but it wasn’t a bad attempt since a Pacht as you know is a lease of something).

As to the French words being purged, they never purged das Pissoir, although it’s flagged as veraltend too and has a use frequency now in LEO as a 0.3 and a 0.0 prior to 1950. But, I’ve seen it on roadside stops in Northern Germany. I always thought it was kind of cute. Reminds me in English of calling a urinal a “pisser” :D

French has got some crazy false cognates too. Like  I’ avertissement.  Sounds like an advertisement, instead of a warning. Sort of like saying, “a bit of an advertisement here folks, but if you touch this high voltage wire you could die.


ROT MACHT STARK! Nur tote Fische schwimmen mit dem Strom.  http://www.dielinke-aurich.de/